| Author |
Message |
Al Dykes
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Mar 24, 2005 9:35 pm Post subject:
Power and ground in old houses |
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I routinly get asked to work on computers in buildings that have
pre-war wiring. Two prong receptacles, not many of them, and
who-knows-what behind the walls. Of course everything the user wants
to hook up requires 3 prong outlets.
When I take the wallplate off I find rubber and fabric-insulated wire
that can crumble if I disturb it. There is no way I'm going to try to
put a modern grounded receptacle here.
I can scrape the paint off the plate and put a 3-wire adapter with a
ground tab in with an OK connection to the ground tab. A wiring test
gadget shows that hot/neutral/ground is correct. (or not, in one
case.)
What's acceptable practice here ?
--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore. |
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Justin Time
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:08 am Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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Let me ask a more basic question. According to your local electrical
code who is qualified to change an outlet? If, according to code, you
are not "qualified," then you may be opening yourself for liability by
doing the favor of changing the outlet. A proper connection for a
three prong outlet requires 3 wires, hot, neutral, and ground. This may
be a case where you would be better off not doing the electrical and
just tell the customer they will need to get an electrician in to redo
the outlet. Once the outlet is redone, then you can come back and
finish the installation.
Rodgers Platt |
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Al Dykes
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:18 am Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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In article <1111691329.883695.227490@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
Justin Time <a_user2000@yahoo.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Let me ask a more basic question. According to your local electrical
code who is qualified to change an outlet? If, according to code, you
are not "qualified," then you may be opening yourself for liability by
doing the favor of changing the outlet. A proper connection for a
three prong outlet requires 3 wires, hot, neutral, and ground. This may
be a case where you would be better off not doing the electrical and
just tell the customer they will need to get an electrician in to redo
the outlet. Once the outlet is redone, then you can come back and
finish the installation.
Rodgers Platt
|
I'm not going to do any electrical work. I'm asking if anything short
of getting a new run from the panel is acceptable practice.
--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore. |
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Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Mar 25, 2005 12:36 am Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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Al Dykes <adykes@panix.com> wrote:
| Quote: | I'm not going to do any electrical work. I'm asking if
anything short of getting a new run from the panel is
acceptable practice.
|
It depends on local code. AFAIK, the NEC allows two wire
service to be converted to 3 prong plugs by replacing the
recepticle with a GFI recepticle.
Those cover-plate screw ground adapters are only suitable
where armored cable has been run, grounded at the panel and
bonded to the outlet metal box. The cover screw is then
part of a tortuous ground path.
In any case, a knowledgeable electrician should be involved.
-- Robert |
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James Knott
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:54 am Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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Al Dykes wrote:
| Quote: |
I routinly get asked to work on computers in buildings that have
pre-war wiring. Two prong receptacles, not many of them, and
who-knows-what behind the walls. Of course everything the user wants
to hook up requires 3 prong outlets.
When I take the wallplate off I find rubber and fabric-insulated wire
that can crumble if I disturb it. There is no way I'm going to try to
put a modern grounded receptacle here.
I can scrape the paint off the plate and put a 3-wire adapter with a
ground tab in with an OK connection to the ground tab. A wiring test
gadget shows that hot/neutral/ground is correct. (or not, in one
case.)
What's acceptable practice here ?
|
Back when I worked for a telecommunications company, we told the client what
power was required. It was their responsibility to provide it. Advise the
client what you've found and have them call in an electrician. Any
attempts to bastardize the power cables can bring you a lot of grief,
should problems develop. The only legal way to use a grounded plug on two
wire circuits, is to use a GFI. Then again, unless you're a licenced
electrician, you've got no business touching a clients AC wiring. |
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James Knott
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Mar 25, 2005 5:58 am Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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Al Dykes wrote:
| Quote: |
I'm not going to do any electrical work. I'm asking if anything short
of getting a new run from the panel is acceptable practice.
|
That's not your concern. It's the customer's responsibility to provide a
safe power source. Make sure you use an outlet tester, should a "grounded"
receptacle suddenly appear. It's always a good idea, to carry one of those
testers in your tool kit. |
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Al Dykes
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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In article <Va2dnfWPe_iF_97fRVn-iQ@rogers.com>,
James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Al Dykes wrote:
I'm not going to do any electrical work. I'm asking if anything short
of getting a new run from the panel is acceptable practice.
That's not your concern. It's the customer's responsibility to provide a
safe power source. Make sure you use an outlet tester, should a "grounded"
receptacle suddenly appear. It's always a good idea, to carry one of those
testers in your tool kit.
|
The customer is asking _me_ for advice.
--
a d y k e s @ p a n i x . c o m
Don't blame me. I voted for Gore. |
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Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Mar 25, 2005 7:37 pm Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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Al Dykes <adykes@panix.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The customer is asking _me_ for advice.
|
My advice would be -- it is likely possible to do something
without replacing the run, but that local codes vary and he
need to consult a licenced electrician. Of course you don't
know any, because cabler hate electricians, and vice versa :)
You don't want to give him _any_ inkling of solutions like GFI
or grounded-box screw taps because should something go wrong,
you most certainly will be liable "He told me X would work".
_You_ are seen as the expert, and consequently have additional
responsibilities.
-- Robert |
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Justin Time
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Mar 26, 2005 1:01 am Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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Al,
Everyone here seems to be singing pretty much the same tune. You don't
want to get involved in the outlet or any other part of the electrical
situation. Your responsibility ends at the end of the power cord to
your equipment. If the proper receptacle is not present, tell the
customer what is required and walk away. That way it is not your
responsibility if any and we mean _ANY_ problems arise that can be
traced back to the circuit or outlet where your equipment was connected
to the power lines.
Rodgers Platt |
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James Knott
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Mar 26, 2005 5:23 am Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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Al Dykes wrote:
| Quote: | The customer is asking me for advice.
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And the only answer, is "fix it". |
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Individual
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Mar 30, 2005 7:13 am Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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Al Dykes posted for all of us...
| Quote: |
I routinly get asked to work on computers in buildings that have
pre-war wiring. Two prong receptacles, not many of them, and
who-knows-what behind the walls. Of course everything the user wants
to hook up requires 3 prong outlets.
When I take the wallplate off I find rubber and fabric-insulated wire
that can crumble if I disturb it. There is no way I'm going to try to
put a modern grounded receptacle here.
I can scrape the paint off the plate and put a 3-wire adapter with a
ground tab in with an OK connection to the ground tab. A wiring test
gadget shows that hot/neutral/ground is correct. (or not, in one
case.)
What's acceptable practice here ?
The only way to test a ground is with an Ideal Industries "Sure Test". |
The 3 light testers are a wishing and a hoping.
Are you certified in your AHJ for high voltage?
Wiremold/Panduit makes surface mount raceway with this situation in mind.
Has a divider between the low & high voltage. Get with an electrician and
confab what to install. He/she will be familiar with the area &
requirements. Look out for an "electrician" who does low voltage also; he
will not be your friend. Provide a package solution to the customer by one
of you possibly subbing to the other.
--
Tekkie |
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Mark Evans
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Mar 30, 2005 8:12 pm Post subject:
Re: Power and ground in old houses |
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Al Dykes <adykes@panix.com> wrote:
| Quote: | In article <Va2dnfWPe_iF_97fRVn-iQ@rogers.com>,
James Knott <james.knott@rogers.com> wrote:
Al Dykes wrote:
I'm not going to do any electrical work. I'm asking if anything short
of getting a new run from the panel is acceptable practice.
That's not your concern. It's the customer's responsibility to provide a
safe power source. Make sure you use an outlet tester, should a "grounded"
receptacle suddenly appear. It's always a good idea, to carry one of those
testers in your tool kit.
The customer is asking _me_ for advice.
|
In which case the best advice you can give the customer is "Get an
electrician in. Your computer/network/PBX/whatever is not going to work
well and could be dangerous without a proper electricity supply."
By the sound of things the existing stuff is not fit for connecting
*anything* to.
--
Mark Evans
St. Peter's CofE Aided School
Phone: +44 1392 204764 X109
Fax: +44 1392 204763 |
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