| Author |
Message |
Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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 Posted:
Sun Jan 30, 2005 11:58 pm Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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Walter Roberson <roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | but if I recall correctly, the applicable FCC regulations
specifically disallow interception in the case of encrypted
transmissions in that frequency range.
|
I wasn't aware that the FCC regs or enabling law prohibited
any _reception_ in any frequency band. Transmissions are
always regulated.
| Quote: | I do not think I can write a precise definition, so I will
give some examples. Theft by conversion includes:
|
This varies enormously state-by-state.
-- Robert |
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Walter Roberson
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 31, 2005 12:46 am Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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In article <ctgukp$9vp$1@canopus.cc.umanitoba.ca>,
Walter Roberson <roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote:
:It's more complicated than that, at least in the US. The
:frequencies are only free to use without a license for certain -kinds-
:of transmissions -- certain data formats, certain power levels.
:It isn't a free-for-all band
Following up myself on that point: the frequency band assigned
to Industrial, Scientific and Medical (ISM) equipment does NOT
allow for unrestricted use for telecommunications, in the USA.
--
If a troll and a half can hook a reader and a half in a posting and a half,
how many readers can six trolls hook in six postings? |
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Walter Roberson
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 31, 2005 1:03 am Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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In article <K7aLd.25574$iC4.962@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
Robert Redelmeier <redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
:I wasn't aware that the FCC regs or enabling law prohibited
:any _reception_ in any frequency band. Transmissions are
:always regulated.
Sec. 15.9 Prohibition against eavesdropping.
Except for the operations of law enforcement officers conducted
under lawful authority, no person shall use, either directly or
indirectly, a device operated pursuant to the provisions of this
part for the purpose of overhearing or recording the private
conversations of others unless such use is authorized by all of the
parties engaging in the conversation.
Recall that in the US, interception of cell phone calls is
generally illegal, with it being illegal to sell consumer devices
able to pick up those frequencies. I seem to recall hearing of
restrictions on the sale of consumer devices that can pick up
emergency or police frequencies. I say "consumer devices" here
my recollection is that it is possible to be licensed for this kind of
equipment (at least for the police frequencies.)
Recall too that in the USA, decryption of satellite TV signals
is considered illegal. The FCC regulations are long; I'm not
sure I could find a precise reference. In Canada, it is not
sufficient that one has paid the broadcaster for reception rights:
one has to restrict oneself to domestic broadcasters
(ExpressVu or StarChoice) for such signals [but unencrypted
FTA is legal.]
--
The image data is transmitted back to Earth at the speed of light
and usually at 12 bits per pixel. |
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Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 31, 2005 3:23 am Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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Walter Roberson <roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote:
| Quote: | Recall that in the US, interception of cell phone calls is
generally illegal, with it being illegal to sell consumer
devices able to pick up those frequencies.
|
Yes, there are rules under the ECPA (1986).
| Quote: | I seem to recall hearing of restrictions on the sale of consumer
devices that can pick up emergency or police frequencies.
|
No, police scanners are generally legal but there are
some restrictions and illegal uses.
| Quote: | Recall too that in the USA, decryption of satellite TV
signals is considered illegal.
|
It might be under the DMCA.
| Quote: | In Canada, it is not sufficient that one has paid the
broadcaster for reception rights: one has to restrict
oneself to domestic broadcasters (ExpressVu or StarChoice)
for such signals [but unencrypted FTA is legal.]
|
I'm surprised. Why should the US laws and FCC regs have
any effect in Canada (beyond broadcast treaties)? Does
Canadian law have a provision incorporating US law?
-- Robert |
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Walter Roberson
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:22 am Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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In article <w7dLd.21217$wi2.13472@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>,
Robert Redelmeier <redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
:Walter Roberson <roberson@ibd.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca> wrote:
:> In Canada, it is not sufficient that one has paid the
:> broadcaster for reception rights: one has to restrict
:> oneself to domestic broadcasters (ExpressVu or StarChoice)
:> for such signals [but unencrypted FTA is legal.]
:I'm surprised. Why should the US laws and FCC regs have
:any effect in Canada (beyond broadcast treaties)? Does
:Canadian law have a provision incorporating US law?
The situation in Canada is independant of US law, except perhaps
in the indirect sense of copyright and contract law.
It was pretty clear under Canadian law that unauthorized reception/
decoding of satellite TV signals was illegal: we implimented
the Berne Convention on Copyrights years before the US did, we didn't
have anything resembling the First Amendment until relatively recently
(1982), and we have no legal history that '"freedom of speech" includes
"freedom to listen" to that which to "speaker" does not want heard'.
We also had CRTC regulations governing domestic licensing of TV, cable,
satellite, and other like forms of transmissions [but no-one has
advanced a serious argument that the CRTC governs Internet
*content*... though it does have some control over the provision of
data circuits.] The CRTC is, amongst other things, a instrument for
bilingualism and retention of national culture [e.g., Canadian Content
rules.] But more-so, the CRTC is an instrument for enforcing exclusive
Canadian distribution rights (including, and this turns out to be a big
contention, the right to substitute Canadian commercials for the US
commercials.) The overall effect is that to deliver content to Canadian
markets, you need a permit, and you aren't likely to get a permit
unless you can convince the CRTC that the major media companies have no
interest at all in going after that market any time in the next 20
years or so. Thus, it's best to be applying with respect to content
that the existing major companies don't believe they could make a
profit in serving.
Now, what was -not- completely clear under Canadian law was the situation
in which a customer was willing to pay a US satellite company
[e.g., Dish Networks] full retail value for the equipment and
channels used. This situation did not fall under the "theft of service"
arguments because the customers were paying and the US providers
were willing to serve those customers. [I heard a figure at one point
that up to 20% of Dish's customers were in Canada -- an amazing number
when you consider the 10:1 population ratio.] The RCMP used to
"turn a blind eye" on the situation, especially in rural areas where
cable TV didn't reach: what harm, after all, is being done by a
customer willingly paying the asking price for a service that was
perfectly legal at it's point of origin. They'd go after the
illict decoders, but ignore the people with paid equipment.
The government and RCMP were, though, heavily pressured by StarChoice
and ExpressVu to respect the exclusive distribution agreements that
those companies had, so they set up a couple of high profile raids
of stores, grabbed customer lists, and charged the store owners.
The main case went right up to the Supreme Court of Canada, which ruled
that Yes, the law -did- give the CRTC jurisdiction to decide which
signals to allow or not, and thus that it was indeed the CRTC's
perogative to ban the importation of foreign satellite signals even
when "grey market" [paid for] decoders were being used. judgement did
take note that there was a Charter of Rights argument that could be
made about free speech, but that that was not what the case they had in
front of them was about: the case had come up through the path of
whether the CRTC had jurisdiction in such cases, so in deciding that
the CRTC did have that jurisdiction, the CRTC-claimed ban on
importation of signals was upheld. The Supreme Court judgement
practically invited people to start a new case upon the issue of
whether the CRTC regulatory procedures were "justifiable" limitations
upon free speech "in a just and democratic Western society".
From a US perspective, the issue was whether or not Canada would
uphold copyright law and "exclusive distribution" contracts...
from that perspective, Canada didn't really have any choice in the matter,
not without serious kerfuffle that would spill over into all manner
of contracts. Too high a stakes to not recognize the validity of
the contracts.
If there is to be a successful challenge to the law, then it will come
from an ethnic community which is unable to gain access to programming
related to its own language, culture, and religion, and the argument
will be that since StarChoice and ExpressVu have expressed complete
disinterest in serving those markets, that it is an unreasonable
imposition upon the members of the community to be denied access
to stations that are already there in the aether and for which they
are willing to pay reasonable access fees. Community members would
have to present copies of letters requesting access from those
companies, and copies of the companies' replies that they weren't
interested in providing that service. I have reason to believe that
that sort of evidence is available.
--
Strange but true: there are entire WWW pages devoted to listing
programs designed to obfuscate HTML. |
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jpd
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 31, 2005 6:15 pm Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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Begin <6bQKd.20930$wi2.16903@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>
On 2005-01-29, Robert Redelmeier <redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
| Quote: | jpd <read_the_sig@do.not.spam.it.invalid> wrote:
I know it isn't followed completely, everywhere, but I like the
convention of Rome on this topic a lot, which AIUI basically says
that you can try and receive anything you want.
I'd like a reference please. AFAIK, the UK and many EU
countries licence and tax TV (&radio) receivers. Is this
"freedom to receive"?
|
Good point. I know at least .nl had such a provision for the longest
time, even while there were taxes on having television and radio
receivers. Now that tax is merged with some other tax (forget which),
since having a seperate collection body was deemed too expensive.
Somehow my memory told me it was a convention of this or that, but I
can't for the life of me find it; it may just be a dutch provision.
I still like the principle, though. The flipside is that if some
scanner-user finds out about criminal activity he is bound to let
the authorities know.
| Quote: | This I see as sensible, because, while sending equipment
is relatively easy to locate by its transmissions, this
doesn't follow for receiving equipment as easily.
Maybe not, but the British drive "TV Dectector" vans around.
I believe most of these are bogus, but I believe TVs do have
a circuit that can be detected at least when powered on.
|
Yes. You'll have to ask someone with radio receiver knowledge for
the details (is there a radio amateur in the cha^Wgroup?), but it
is possible at least with certain amplified receiver setups. For
a short distance, anyway.
| Quote: | Which leaves "theft by conversion" (I don't know what that
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ |
IANAL, but now that you've got me googling anyway, I'd found a definition
of this at [gacd]. Being awfully pedant, I don't think this is applicable
since there's no agreement to violate.
Then again, I don't think .kr has quite the same wording of applicable
laws (being in the korean language and all) so whether there are similar
suitable rules I don't know. Looks like an excercise for the OP. :-)
| Quote: | is) or computer abuse, which OP indicates isn't regulated
in his country.
Cracking into computers is legal in .kr??? I'd be very surprised
if the chaebol would tolerate this.
|
I don't know. The OP claimed it wasn't regulated. My point following
the above (which got snipped) was that I believe parts of the action he
stated on intending to execute would be an offense on (non-specifically
computer technical) grounds anyway. There don't happen to be .kr lawyers
around in this froup, do there?
| Quote: | A WAP is a small computer
(usually with a MIPS CPU) and a nice web interface. Most keep
access logs, and I check mine regularly for interlopers.
|
Some people actively don't care: I know of at least one case where
someone has _two_ access points; one with wep encryption enabled,
and one wide open with a SSID of "TAKEME"[0] and still a working
'net connection behind it. This is not to imply you should do any
different from what you do, of course.
[0] Or similar wording.
[gacd] http://www.georgiacriminaldefense.com/crimes/theft.htm
--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l . |
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James Knott
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:08 pm Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
|
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Robert Redelmeier wrote:
| Quote: | In Canada, it is not sufficient that one has paid the
broadcaster for reception rights: one has to restrict
oneself to domestic broadcasters (ExpressVu or StarChoice)
for such signals [but unencrypted FTA is legal.]
I'm surprised. Why should the US laws and FCC regs have
any effect in Canada (beyond broadcast treaties)? Does
Canadian law have a provision incorporating US law?
|
Canadians are not allowed to receive U.S. services, because those companies
don't have the "rights" to sell in the Canadian market. |
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CJ
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:38 am Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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Why should we tell you how to sponge off someone elses internet?
<xstanley007@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1106979978.510379.14330@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hi all! I wonder how can I get the internet connection for free, if I
have the SSID, Channel and 128 bit WEP key of an AP. I have LinSys
bridge, but I don't have wireless card. I'm able to use my bridge to
scan ssid and mac address, but not ip. How can I obtain the an ip and
internet connection? Thanks in advance!
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CJ
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:40 am Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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The nerve of some people. Stanley, I suggest you get a job and pay for your
own services.
<xstanley007@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1106979978.510379.14330@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
| Quote: | Hi all! I wonder how can I get the internet connection for free, if I
have the SSID, Channel and 128 bit WEP key of an AP. I have LinSys
bridge, but I don't have wireless card. I'm able to use my bridge to
scan ssid and mac address, but not ip. How can I obtain the an ip and
internet connection? Thanks in advance!
|
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glen herrmannsfeldt
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:09 pm Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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|
jpd wrote:
(snip)
| Quote: | This I see as sensible, because, while sending equipment
is relatively easy to locate by its transmissions, this
doesn't follow for receiving equipment as easily.
Maybe not, but the British drive "TV Dectector" vans around.
I believe most of these are bogus, but I believe TVs do have
a circuit that can be detected at least when powered on.
Yes. You'll have to ask someone with radio receiver knowledge for
the details (is there a radio amateur in the cha^Wgroup?), but it
is possible at least with certain amplified receiver setups. For
a short distance, anyway.
|
Do you mean to detect which frequency is being received?
The resonant circuit in the first stage of the tuner means it
absorbs slightly more at that frequency than others, but that
would be pretty hard to detect.
For many receivers, though, there is enough leakage from the local
oscillator that one might detect it. This leakage is why radios
and televisions receivers are not allowed on airplanes in flight,
and also because the frequencies used for air traffic control aren't
far from FM radio and TV frequencies.
The same would probably work for detecting receivers without
detecting the frequency, though looking for roof antennae would
be another way.
There are stories about US government being able to detect
the RF emission from computer monitors and reconstruct the image
on the screen. That is, for security reasons.
-- glen |
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glen herrmannsfeldt
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Feb 01, 2005 3:25 pm Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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Walter Roberson wrote:
| Quote: | In article <K7aLd.25574$iC4.962@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>,
Robert Redelmeier <redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote:
:I wasn't aware that the FCC regs or enabling law prohibited
:any _reception_ in any frequency band. Transmissions are
:always regulated.
Sec. 15.9 Prohibition against eavesdropping.
Except for the operations of law enforcement officers conducted
under lawful authority, no person shall use, either directly or
indirectly, a device operated pursuant to the provisions of this
part for the purpose of overhearing or recording the private
conversations of others unless such use is authorized by all of the
parties engaging in the conversation.
|
This sounds more like wiretapping. There was a story once of
someone who overheard her neighbor's drug deals through a cordless (not
cellular) phone on her AM radio. The police came and recorded the
conversation off the AM radio, and it held up in court.
It may or may not have if one used a scanner instead, but pretty
much the law is that one should not expect privacy from a cordless
phone.
| Quote: | Recall that in the US, interception of cell phone calls is
generally illegal, with it being illegal to sell consumer devices
able to pick up those frequencies. I seem to recall hearing of
restrictions on the sale of consumer devices that can pick up
emergency or police frequencies. I say "consumer devices" here
my recollection is that it is possible to be licensed for this kind of
equipment (at least for the police frequencies.)
|
There is a special US law regarding cell phones and their frequencies.
The favorite example being the recording of Newt Gingrich on his
cell phone.
| Quote: | Recall too that in the USA, decryption of satellite TV signals
is considered illegal. The FCC regulations are long; I'm not
sure I could find a precise reference.
|
(snip)
Well, encryption is different. Also, I am unsure about the ability
to sell commercially equipment to receive signals that would otherwise
require a license, and there is also the DMCA to worry about.
In general though, with specific exceptions, you are allowed to
receive but not redistribute the information, especially if it
could be considered unintentional. (Such as the AM radio case above.)
That is, for personal use only. Of course if you don't tell anyone
you are much less likely to get caught.
-- glen |
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\\ystein Gyland
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:30 pm Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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Robert Redelmeier <redelm@ev1.net.invalid> writes:
| Quote: | Maybe not, but the British drive "TV Dectector" vans around.
I believe most of these are bogus, but I believe TVs do have
a circuit that can be detected at least when powered on.
|
AFAIK, they are detecting noise in the UHF-band from the antenna cable.
-Øystein |
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jpd
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:00 pm Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
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Begin <1OmdnbbW2ff6yGLcRVn-oQ@comcast.com>
On 2005-02-01, glen herrmannsfeldt <gah@ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
| Quote: | jpd wrote:
Maybe not, but the British drive "TV Dectector" vans around.
I believe most of these are bogus, but I believe TVs do have
a circuit that can be detected at least when powered on.
Yes. You'll have to ask someone with radio receiver knowledge for
the details (is there a radio amateur in the cha^Wgroup?), but it
is possible at least with certain amplified receiver setups. For
a short distance, anyway.
Do you mean to detect which frequency is being received?
|
Yes. Or at least (for this purpose) to detect reception in a certain
set of bands. Then you walk up and verify the presence of an apparatus
capable of doing the stuff you're collecting the taxes for.
| Quote: | The resonant circuit in the first stage of the tuner means it
absorbs slightly more at that frequency than others, but that
would be pretty hard to detect.
For many receivers, though, there is enough leakage from the local
oscillator that one might detect it. This leakage is why radios
and televisions receivers are not allowed on airplanes in flight,
and also because the frequencies used for air traffic control aren't
far from FM radio and TV frequencies.
|
Something I found in a book full of anecdotes and stories, describes a
slightly different way: one sends out so much that some (part of the)
amplified reception circuit has to do something with the excess energy,
and sends it out again. Like prodding in the dark until something goes
``eep''. NB, I'm not an EE, the details are hazy as I read that book ten
years ago, and this all might be a quirk only found in equipment long
gone, the stories were at least 20 years old back then. Hence the note
that one'd want to ask someone knowledgeable, say a radio amateur. I
just remember someone relating an instance where this trick did work.
| Quote: | The same would probably work for detecting receivers without
detecting the frequency, though looking for roof antennae would
be another way.
|
For the purpose of weeding out where to look and where to skip, that'd
be enough already. The point of the electronics is merely to make the
check more efficient, not to make the checkers obsolete.
| Quote: | There are stories about US government being able to detect
the RF emission from computer monitors and reconstruct the image
on the screen. That is, for security reasons.
|
I've seen it demonstrated a couple of years ago, and it does work. But
that demonstration also showed that the picture contains lots of noise.
Then again, I've heard it was possible to reconstruct an image from
the rather scattered image on the wall behind (well, in front of) the
monitor, so the electromagnetic version of the reconstruction may have
improved substantially too.
--
j p d (at) d s b (dot) t u d e l f t (dot) n l . |
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Stephen Furley
Guest
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| Posted:
Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:48 pm Post subject:
Re: Obtain internet connection |
|
|
Robert Redelmeier <redelm@ev1.net.invalid> wrote in message news:<24aLd.25572$iC4.24398@newssvr30.news.prodigy.com>...
| Quote: | Not quite. Every AP is it's own small network that usually
has routing to an ISP. But is a separate network, usually
with private IP addresses and the router does NAT.
|
A simple access point does not do routing or NAT, it's closer in
function to a switch or bridge.
Leaving an access point open would be pretty much the same as
installing an Ethernet port on the outside wall of your building, and
using an open access point without permission would be the same as
plugging in to such a port, and using whatever you found you were able
to connect to. |
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