| Author |
Message |
Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com
Guest
|
 Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 3:20 am Post subject:
How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
Hello everyone!
The year is 2005, and the new National Electrical Code is officially out,
and the 2002 edition moved up the ladder into field use. So, it is now
really-really required to remove those abandoned cables (or tag them "for
future use"). Has anyone been successful in selling this idea to the
customers? I personally have nothing to brag about except for some small
jobs. One of the problems I'm been able to identify so far is: how do you
price it with so many unknowns? The second major one is: who's gonna pay?
Landlord? Tenant that's moving out?
Anyways, if someone has any success stories to post here, please do. Looks
like a potential business opportunity, if approached correctly. Let's
think together about what works and what does not.
Thanks!
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------
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Justin Time
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:13 pm Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
Some really great questions. I'm also interested in learning the
answers people are facing as they try to sell this to the customer.
As far as marketing tips, or "how do I sell it to my customer?" I would
look to your local permitting agency. If the inspectors are going to
include this in their inspection criteria, then you have "somebody to
blame it on" as it is now required by the local Authority Having
Authority.
A second way to look at it is to try to sell it as a life-safety issue.
The building owner and tenants are required to do everything possible
to protect their employees / tenants and leaving old, abandoned cable
in the ceilings adds fuel for any fire that may get started. This is a
similar sales approach to adding the cost of firestopping.
As far as pricing cable removal, I would base it on the number of
cables to be removed. While you probably can't get an exact count,
base an estimate on the amount of labor to install a similar number of
cables. If you can haul off the old cable, then there may be
additional revenue from selling it as scrap. Sometimes even old patch
panels can be reused if the customer tells you "take out what's here."
Giving old patch panels to charitable organizations can result in a tax
write-off which is reflected on the company's bottom line.
Rodgers Platt |
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Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:21 am Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
Justin Time wrote:
| Quote: | Some really great questions. I'm also interested in learning the
answers people are facing as they try to sell this to the customer.
As far as marketing tips, or "how do I sell it to my
customer?" I would
look to your local permitting agency. If the inspectors are going to
include this in their inspection criteria, then you have "somebody
to
blame it on" as it is now required by the local Authority Having
Authority.
A second way to look at it is to try to sell it as a life-safety issue.
The building owner and tenants are required to do everything possible
to protect their employees / tenants and leaving old, abandoned cable
in the ceilings adds fuel for any fire that may get started. This is a
similar sales approach to adding the cost of firestopping.
As far as pricing cable removal, I would base it on the number of
cables to be removed. While you probably can't get an exact count,
base an estimate on the amount of labor to install a similar number of
cables. If you can haul off the old cable, then there may be
additional revenue from selling it as scrap. Sometimes even old patch
panels can be reused if the customer tells you "take out what's
here."
Giving old patch panels to charitable organizations can result in a tax
write-off which is reflected on the company's bottom line.
Rodgers Platt
|
Thanks for posting Rodger, let's keep this thread going. I know there is
gold above that ceiling; we just need to figure out how to get it!
Oh yes, we do really press severe on the "life safety" issue! Problem is:
people don't consider it an issue unless they know someone has been fined
for non-compliance, and we, unfortunately, don't have an example yet. I
honestly have not heard about anyone having been fined for this neither
here in PA nor nationwide. This would be the valuable bit of info I'm
looking for.
On a side note: I think it would not help as much to learn that someone
has actually died of the chlorines exhumed by the cable as to learn that
someone has been fined $90 (or better yet $900) for not removing the
stupid cable. Having been involved with the issue for couple years
already, I would say it is really disheartening to see how much people
don't really care about safety UNLESS IT IS ENFORCED!
Anyways, correct pricing is still an issue: on average it takes about two
times less time to remove cable than to install it, but there is always a
"BUT": there is a great degree of unpredictability involved. An abandoned
cable gets entangled with a live one, you yank it out, and your neighbor’s
T1 goes down. That's my biggest fear coming into these types of projects.
I'm not even sure our insurance company would be happy to know that we are
taking such risks all day long removing the old cables.
Another issue that has been identified so far: it requires different work
force. If you send your best techs removing cable, after couple hours in
this dust you easily get them de-motivated and you'll pay through the
nose. On the other hand a person should know what he's doing to avoid
pulling a live cable out, so you can't just take anyone from the street.
We have not yet been able to identify a proper mix of experienced techs
and laborers to do this job. The last one should be read: we are paying
through the nose for a rather un-sophisticated type of work being done by
people clearly over-qualified for the job.
About selling the scrap: at our (only one known to us) local facility a
pickup truck-load of scrap copper cable yields a case of beer. Though
useful for a company picnic, it does not really justify a business case.
Interesting detail: you'd think they recycle the copper: na-ah, they
recycle the PVC and make garden accessories from it.
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------
##-----------------------------------------------##
Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archive
http://www.cabling-design.com/forums
no-spam read and post WWW interface to your favorite newsgroup -
comp.dcom.cabling - 1128 messages and counting!
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David Ross
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Jan 22, 2005 8:01 am Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
| Quote: | Anyways, correct pricing is still an issue: on average it takes about two
times less time to remove cable than to install it, but there is always a
"BUT": there is a great degree of unpredictability involved. An abandoned
cable gets entangled with a live one, you yank it out, and your neighbor’s
T1 goes down. That's my biggest fear coming into these types of projects.
I'm not even sure our insurance company would be happy to know that we are
taking such risks all day long removing the old cables.
|
Or you pull down a suspended ceiling, or pull out a poorly secured 120v
wire, or break a fragile solder joint on a sprinkler pipe, or.....
The main reason cable was abandoned in place was the hassle of getting
it out.
What does the code say about abandoned cable behind plaster or sheetrock
where removal might mean cutting into walls to removed cable anchored
down to entangled with good? |
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James Knott
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Jan 22, 2005 5:44 pm Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com wrote:
| Quote: | On the other hand a person should know what he's doing to avoid
pulling a live cable out, so you can't just take anyone from the street.
We have not yet been able to identify a proper mix of experienced techs
and laborers to do this job. The last one should be read: we are paying
through the nose for a rather un-sophisticated type of work being done by
people clearly over-qualified for the job.
|
Perhaps the answer is one good guy, supervising the rest. |
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Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com
Guest
|
| Posted:
Sat Jan 22, 2005 7:24 pm Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
David Ross wrote:
| Quote: | What does the code say about abandoned cable behind plaster or
sheetrock
where removal might mean cutting into walls to removed cable anchored
down to entangled with good?
|
It only requires removal of abandoned cables in plenum spaces. So, no need
to rip the walls. Still a hassle to remove as you correctly pointed out.
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------
##-----------------------------------------------#
Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archiv
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Justin Time
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Jan 24, 2005 7:32 pm Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
As a follow-up, here is the language I had written into a Blanket
Statement of Work for the government entity I help with their
telecommunications. Perhaps it will help someone in either writing
their own specifications or provide some insight towards marketing
cable removal.
"(c) The Contractor shall remove any existing telecommunications
cabling in any space that is either abandoned or displaced as a result
of the installation of new telecommunications infrastructure under this
Statement of Work."
While this single sentence is only a part of a much larger document, it
shows how to specify the removal of abandoned cables in a job
requirements document. For those of you who are working with customers
in defining their requirements, you can point them to the NEC and show
them the paragraph requiring the removal of the cables. From there, it
is a simple step to modify the above statement to fit their specific
requirements.
And no, the entire Statement of Work will not be posted as it is a
proprietary document.
Rodgers Platt |
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Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com
Guest
|
| Posted:
Mon Jan 24, 2005 8:03 pm Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
Justin Time wrote:
| Quote: | "(c) The Contractor shall remove any existing telecommunications
cabling in any space that is either abandoned or displaced as a result
of the installation of new telecommunications infrastructure under this
Statement of Work."
Rodgers Platt
|
Hi Rodgers,
Have you tried it on a real bid yet?
I think what's going to happen is this: your potential bidders will go
ballistic (I know I would). How do you think it is possible on a 2hr
(even, 5hr, not the point) pre-bid walk-through to identify the amount of
existing cable to be removed? How do you even know that the cable is
indeed abandoned without working closely (under a contract) with IT,
phone, security and other departments?
So, here is my set of scenarios where it is leading you:
#1: You are going to receive terribly over-priced bids because people will
try to cope with lots of uncertainty
#2: You are going to receive wildly different bids (I would say way more
than 50% difference), which is going to be a bitch to decide on, and your
chances of picking a wrong contractor that's just screwed up preparing the
bid are too high. If you do pick a wrong contractor indeed, you'll end up
either firing him in the middle of the project (spells HUGE extra expense,
we are fixing up someone’s low bid at a school right this moment) or get a
project with every corner cut, everything from sloppy workmanship to
questionable origin of the materials installed.
#3: (my favorite) People will say (rightfully so) that the bid was
tailored to the company that used to have your service work for years,
came to know your facility and thus is the only bidder able to guess
reasonably on the amount of abandoned cables. Your bid will be called
unjust, and your boss will receive a call from a concerned citizen. In
case of a very thoroughly concerned citizen IRS will receive a call, too,
to take a closer look at the possible contractor pay-backs.
#3.1 Here is a flip-side of scenario #3: Even if you are your own boss and
could care less about concerned citizens, by being too much loyal
(tailoring bids to) to a single vendor you simply jack your own costs up!
In my mind, I would try to mix fresh blood in every time I can, just so
the contractor of your choice has that feeling on the back of his mind
that he is not alone in the Universe.
I say keep removals under separate contract.
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------
##-----------------------------------------------#
Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archiv
http://www.cabling-design.com/forum
no-spam read and post WWW interface to your favorite newsgroup -
comp.dcom.cabling - 1133 messages and counting
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Justin Time
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 25, 2005 12:13 am Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
That particular statement has been a part of our Blanket SOW since
August 2003, so yes we have received many bids for work that included
the statement.
To answer another item, yes some bids have varied widely, those mainly
from new contractors that haven't worked with the City before. The
cost of cabling has gone up since we included the statement, but not
significantly more than the normal esculation of labor and materials.
If you attempted to do a direct comparison of costs, I would estimate
about 15 to 20% is added for labor to remove old cables.
Reread the statement to see exactly what the requirement is before you
start talking seperate contracts for cable removal. The statement is
very specific about what is required. |
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Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 25, 2005 1:26 am Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
Justin Time wrote:
| Quote: | Reread the statement to see exactly what the requirement is before you
start talking seperate contracts for cable removal. The statement is
very specific about what is required.
Hi Rodgers, |
I think you are referring to the clause that sates that the removal is
associated with the new cables installed under the SOW. I guess, you are
right: that should ease the tension as you can approximately quantify the
number of cables to remove by the number of panels you are getting rid of
to install your new ones.
And I still think that your tried and true contractors have a huge head
start by being able to guess much better on the conditions they'll meet
when they remove the old ones.
The cost increases you observed (15%-20%) can easily be explained by labor
costs only or by recent plenum price increases or by the fact that you
might have upgraded your spec from CAT5E to CAT6 recently, and not the
additional labor to remove existing cable. If removal introduced any
additional cost here, I would say that it is so negligible that your
contractors are practically giving it away.
Giving it away for free is NOT what I want to do with cable removal part
of the business, but rather put a reasonable price tag on it and run as a
business entity in its own right.
Thanks for the scoop, Rodgers, I greatly appreciate that! It is very
important to know that you might be competing against people that may be
willing to do it for free ;-)
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------
##-----------------------------------------------#
Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archiv
http://www.cabling-design.com/forum
no-spam read and post WWW interface to your favorite newsgroup -
comp.dcom.cabling - 1136 messages and counting
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Justin Time
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Jan 25, 2005 7:59 pm Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
The difference in labor costs, or at least what we assume are mostly
labor related, is due to the removal clause as the cable spec of Cat
5(e) hasn't changed in almost 5 years. We have had some people come in
an propose Cat 6, but that price is almost always a 40% increase in
material and labor over a Cat 5(e) install. That doesn't mean that
some agencies don't install Cat 6, but they usually pick and choose
which offices / sites are wired to Cat 6.
The usual practice here in this city is that every site is completely
recabled about every 5 years. Not because the old plant went bad, but
because they constantly change office configurations. I have had some
offices where they have replaced the modular furniture twice in 3
years, recabling over 100 cubicles each time. And that doesn't count
the number of times one agency will move out of a building into a
different facility and the new space will be redone as well as the old
space by the backfill agency. All told, I estimate the city spends
over $1.5MM on new cabling projects each year.
The particular building I work in is about 15 years old now. The
building was originally wired with Cat 3. Our particular suite was
rewired with Cat 5 in '99 and will be completely stripped and rewired
again later this year as the space is renovated.
About 7 years ago the city invested over $30 million to upgrade the
desktop with Cat 5 cabling and new telephones. Took us over 3 years to
work our way through the entire city and we are still cleaning up after
shoddy / botched cable jobs. As we again update the telephone system
we have the opportunity to go back and address the problem areas. |
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Watson A.Name - \"Watt Su
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Jan 26, 2005 6:35 pm Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
"Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com)" <info_at_cabling-design_dot_com@foo.com>
wrote in message news:XMiId.1181037$2W1.93109@news.easynews.com...
[snip]
| Quote: | Thanks for posting Rodger, let's keep this thread going. I know there
is
gold above that ceiling; we just need to figure out how to get it!
|
No gold for me - I get paid by the hour, and I'm already booked solid.
The problem I see with some of this is that the ceilings often have
cabling that's in contact with the asbestos fireproofing so if you move
it, you have to practice asbestos abatement procedures. Right now, the
maintenance people and I are not allowed to do work in some bldgs
because of this. And some of our bldgs have literally tons of the old
25 pair IW cable from the old key phone systems that were abandoned in
the late '80s. I would really like to remove that stuff, but with the
asbestos..
| Quote: | Oh yes, we do really press severe on the "life safety" issue! Problem
is:
people don't consider it an issue unless they know someone has been
fined
for non-compliance, and we, unfortunately, don't have an example yet.
I
honestly have not heard about anyone having been fined for this
neither
here in PA nor nationwide. This would be the valuable bit of info I'm
looking for.
On a side note: I think it would not help as much to learn that
someone
has actually died of the chlorines exhumed by the cable as to learn
that |
Exhumed? I think that's when you dig a dead and buried body up for
forensic examination.
| Quote: | someone has been fined $90 (or better yet $900) for not removing the
stupid cable. Having been involved with the issue for couple years
already, I would say it is really disheartening to see how much people
don't really care about safety UNLESS IT IS ENFORCED!
Anyways, correct pricing is still an issue: on average it takes about
two
times less time to remove cable than to install it, but there is
always a
"BUT": there is a great degree of unpredictability involved. An
abandoned
cable gets entangled with a live one, you yank it out, and your
neighbor's
T1 goes down. That's my biggest fear coming into these types of
projects.
I'm not even sure our insurance company would be happy to know that we
are
taking such risks all day long removing the old cables.
Another issue that has been identified so far: it requires different
work
force. If you send your best techs removing cable, after couple hours
in
this dust you easily get them de-motivated and you'll pay through the
nose. On the other hand a person should know what he's doing to avoid
pulling a live cable out, so you can't just take anyone from the
street.
We have not yet been able to identify a proper mix of experienced
techs
and laborers to do this job. The last one should be read: we are
paying
through the nose for a rather un-sophisticated type of work being done
by
people clearly over-qualified for the job.
About selling the scrap: at our (only one known to us) local facility
a
pickup truck-load of scrap copper cable yields a case of beer. Though
useful for a company picnic, it does not really justify a business
case.
Interesting detail: you'd think they recycle the copper: na-ah, they
recycle the PVC and make garden accessories from it.
-- |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:01 am Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
Watson A.Name - \"Watt Sun, th wrote:
| Quote: | No gold for me - I get paid by the hour, and I'm already booked solid.
|
Can't brag about overbooking myself, so any additional opportunity is
welcomed.
| Quote: | The problem I see with some of this is that the ceilings often have
cabling that's in contact with the asbestos fireproofing so if you move
it, you have to practice asbestos abatement procedures. Right now, the
maintenance people and I are not allowed to do work in some bldgs
because of this. And some of our bldgs have literally tons of the old
25 pair IW cable from the old key phone systems that were abandoned in
the late '80s. I would really like to remove that stuff, but with the
asbestos..
|
Thanks for the insight. I did not think of that before. I guess, you can
always cut them flush with the firestop device. Otherwise you'd have to
worry about re-firestopping, so just cutting the cables at this point
sounds logical to me (unless disapproved by the firestop device
manufacturer)
| Quote: | Exhumed? I think that's when you dig a dead and buried body up for
forensic examination.
|
Emit? Give off? Well, you get the idea ;-)
Thanks!
--
Dmitri Abaimov, RCDD
http://www.cabling-design.com
Cabling Forum, color codes, pinouts and other useful resources for
premises cabling users and pros
http://www.cabling-design.com/homecabling
Residential Cabling Guide
-------------------------------------
##-----------------------------------------------#
Article posted with Cabling-Design.com Newsgroup Archiv
http://www.cabling-design.com/forum
no-spam read and post WWW interface to your favorite newsgroup -
comp.dcom.cabling - 1139 messages and counting
##-----------------------------------------------## |
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|
|
David Ross
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 28, 2005 12:46 am Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
| Quote: | The problem I see with some of this is that the ceilings often have
cabling that's in contact with the asbestos fireproofing so if you move
it, you have to practice asbestos abatement procedures. Right now, the
maintenance people and I are not allowed to do work in some bldgs
because of this. And some of our bldgs have literally tons of the old
25 pair IW cable from the old key phone systems that were abandoned in
the late '80s. I would really like to remove that stuff, but with the
asbestos..
|
When you talk about really old cable you start getting into weird
situations. When AT&T broke up and deregulation took hold at some point
it was "decided" that the wire in the walls belonged to the local
provider. You were even supposed to call your local phone company and
ask them to officially abandon it before ripping it out. (We did this in
Pittsburgh in the 80s and you could tell by the voice at the other end
they were tired of the question.) At some point I think some, most,
maybe most all, of the local carriers officially abandoned it to the
building owners. But if not and there is a fire safety case, I imagine
it could get strange in the lawsuits. |
|
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|
|
Perkowski
Guest
|
| Posted:
Fri Jan 28, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject:
Re: How's your cable removal business? |
|
|
Dmitri(Cabling-Design.com) wrote:
| Quote: | Hello everyone!
The year is 2005, and the new National Electrical Code is officially out,
and the 2002 edition moved up the ladder into field use. So, it is now
really-really required to remove those abandoned cables (or tag them "for
future use"). Has anyone been successful in selling this idea to the
customers? I personally have nothing to brag about except for some small
jobs. One of the problems I'm been able to identify so far is: how do you
price it with so many unknowns? The second major one is: who's gonna pay?
Landlord? Tenant that's moving out?
Anyways, if someone has any success stories to post here, please do. Looks
like a potential business opportunity, if approached correctly. Let's
think together about what works and what does not.
Thanks!
Honestly, the only way anybody is going to make money pulling cable out |
is by paying off the local town electrical inspector to go to the site
and tell the customer it has to come out. Until that happens I dont
think its a large market for now. |
|
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