| Author |
Message |
Duane Arnold
Guest
|
 Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:01 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
Jock <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in
news:kv64o1ddlh8l90uotgidb5vc9iobb6br21@4ax.com:
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 21:52:17 GMT, Duane Arnold <notme@notme.com> wrote:
Jock <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in
news:5kq0o15edfhugiivcacqq3gba3do3gtbo4@4ax.com:
Zone Alarm Pro 6 disconnects my router from the internet regularly
and without being asked to do so.
I have to stop Zone Alarm, re-initialise the router and start Zone
Alarm again. This is getting to be a PITA. (If I leave Zone Alarm
running, I cannot re-initialise the router).
There's no real support from Zone Labs, only forums (which their
system won't let me join and FAQs which don't addresse this problem.
Any ideas? Or anyone have the telephone number for the UK office?
If ZA is not running as part of the firmware the router is using, then
what does one have to do with the other?
You've lost me there.
It's just that I cannot re-initialise/restart the router while ZA
is running. Therefore ZA is the problem!
Some time ago, when I was using the free version of ZA, and I WANTED
to disconnect, I couldn't reconnect from within ZA and couldn't
restart the router. As I understand it you ought to be able to
connect and disconnect from within ZA without having to reboot
the computer, reinstall XP or remortgage your house!
|
ZA is not part of the router's software that makes the router work is it?
If ZA is not part of the router's software and ZA is running on the
computer with the Windows O/S then how is the problem you're having be
related? ZA has nothing to do with the operations of the router just like
the Windows O/S has nothing to do with the control or operations of the
router. The router has its own software that makes it operate and it's
independent of whatever ZA is doing.
I don't know what your problems are but I doubt that it's a router ZA
issue/conflict.
Duane :) |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Jason Edwards
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:30 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
"Jock" <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:ui64o1hqhtrj9jgp2d5r2m4gagh4stmn4v@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:26:26 -0000, "Jason Edwards"
none1@invalid.invalid
wrote:
reluctant to stay on line without a firewall.
Why? I don't mean to be rude but you are demonstrating that you have no
clue
what ZA is actually doing and would be much better off using the Windows
firewall, assuming you have Windows XP SP2.
You may not be far wrong there! What is a firewall for if not to
keep intruders out. The XP firewall only works in one direction,
ZA looks at both incoming and outgoing traffic.
|
Ok, so, what does ZA do when malware includes its own TCP/IP stack and talks
directly to the network card??
If you want to keep intruders out then follow advice already given in this
thread. There's no need for me to repeat it. You might also want to stay
away from Outlook Express and Internet Explorer. Use alternatives. This will
help you avoid installing malware accidentally.
| Quote: |
You said in another post that two other machines are connected to your
router. Do they continue working when your machine disconnects?
What does ipconfig /all say when you are connected and when you are
disconnected?
I didn't think to check, but while I was re-installing XP on the 'host'
computer, the other two remained connected.
|
Ok. So, what you meant to say in your original post was "Zone Alarm Pro 6
disconnects the computer it's installed on from the internet regularly and
without being asked to do so."
[cut]
| Quote: |
Disconnected, I don't know. I'm not going to disconnect just to find out,
as it is a real hastle to get it started again.
|
Ok so we've established that ZA is the cause of the problem and not your
router.
Since I can only guess at the reason I'll give three possible reasons.
ZA is blocking 1. DHCP, 2. DNS, 3. Path MTU discovery.
1 seems unlikely, 2 is more likely, 3 is also very likely in your case.
There are may other possible reasons, all of which will go away when you
take the best option and remove ZA and follow other advice given in this
thread to secure your computer. You don't need ZA, but I know it's going to
be hard to accept that if you've already wasted your money and can't get a
refund.
Jason
| Quote: |
--
Jock.
I never believe anything until it's been officially
denied. -- Claude Cockburn |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Volker Birk
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
Jock <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | The XP firewall only works in one direction,
ZA looks at both incoming and outgoing traffic.
|
This is a fairy tale. It's not possible to have control about what
you're calling "outgoing traffic".
http://www.dingens.org/breakout-en.c
http://www.dingens.org/breakout-en.exe (precompiled binary)
Yes, Zone Alarm Pro is filtering Windows messages now. And of course,
this is completely nonsense, because this means hailing popups. No user
will be able to deal with it (beside the fact, that this easily can be
bypassed, too, by adding an autoclicker for those popups).
Yours,
VB.
--
"Ich bin ein freier Mensch und werde jetzt von meinen Freiheitsrechten
Gebrauch machen - und zwar ausgiebig - natürlich nur in dem Rahmen, den
Otto Schily mir noch zur Verfügung stellt."
Wolfgang Clement am 10.10.05 als Noch-Superminister |
|
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|
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Volker Birk
Guest
|
| Posted:
Tue Nov 22, 2005 5:21 pm Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
Jock <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote:
| Quote: | You might have been more helpful if you'd suggested an alternative
to ZA.
|
Try the Windows-Firewall.
No "outgoing traffic control"? Yes, this is OK, because it's useless
anyway.
Yours,
VB.
--
"Ich bin ein freier Mensch und werde jetzt von meinen Freiheitsrechten
Gebrauch machen - und zwar ausgiebig - natürlich nur in dem Rahmen, den
Otto Schily mir noch zur Verfügung stellt."
Wolfgang Clement am 10.10.05 als Noch-Superminister |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jock
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:20 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:01:53 GMT, Duane Arnold <notme@notme.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Jock <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in
news:kv64o1ddlh8l90uotgidb5vc9iobb6br21@4ax.com:
It's just that I cannot re-initialise/restart the router while ZA
is running. Therefore ZA is the problem!
Some time ago, when I was using the free version of ZA, and I WANTED
to disconnect, I couldn't reconnect from within ZA and couldn't
restart the router. As I understand it you ought to be able to
connect and disconnect from within ZA without having to reboot
the computer, reinstall XP or remortgage your house!
ZA is not part of the router's software that makes the router work is it?
|
No, no, the router does not have a built-in firewall if that's
what you mean.
| Quote: | If ZA is not part of the router's software and ZA is running on the
computer with the Windows O/S then how is the problem you're having be
related? ZA has nothing to do with the operations of the router just like
the Windows O/S has nothing to do with the control or operations of the
router. The router has its own software that makes it operate and it's
independent of whatever ZA is doing.
|
I would agree with that, but the fact remains that the router cannot
be restarted with ZA running!
| Quote: | I don't know what your problems are but I doubt that it's a router ZA
issue/conflict.
|
--
Jock.
I never believe anything until it's been officially
denied. -- Claude Cockburn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jock
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:24 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:07:39 +0100, Wolfgang Kueter <wolfgang@shconnect.de>
wrote:
| Quote: | Am Mon, 21 Nov 2005 19:17:54 +0000 schrieb Jock:
I take it you're not a fan of Zone Alarm, then?
The product is snake-oil like all similar products from other vendors
because the concept of all these tools is broken as designed.
|
I see. You have an axe to grind, then.
| Quote: | You might have been more helpful if you'd suggested an alternative to ZA.
That is easy:
1. Shut down all unwanted services.
2. Use the winXP built in packet filter if you feel you need to filter
incoming traffic.
3. Install only software from sources you trust and use only software you
trust.
4. Don't run software that has has a bad history concerning security.
5. Always use you computer with user rights, never work with administrator
rights.
6. Use Administrator access only for short periods when you really
need it (install software and patches, change system settings etc.).
All that refers to the box itself and it is is enough. No need for
snake-oil and the result is a safe box.
If you want to do some more: There is nothing wrong to filter traffic on
the perimeter (incoming and outgoing if you like) with a separate device.
|
If I knew what you were talking about I might be able to do all
this. As it stands the machine is perfectly clean and has been for
years. This is not sufficiently serious to worry about too much,
and does not in any way affect security.
I'll try to find a USER newsgroup that talks the language of users.
Thank you for your input.
--
Jock.
I never believe anything until it's been officially
denied. -- Claude Cockburn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jock
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:34 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:30:38 -0000, "Jason Edwards" <none1@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Jock" <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:ui64o1hqhtrj9jgp2d5r2m4gagh4stmn4v@4ax.com...
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:26:26 -0000, "Jason Edwards"
none1@invalid.invalid
wrote:
reluctant to stay on line without a firewall.
Why? I don't mean to be rude but you are demonstrating that you have no
clue
what ZA is actually doing and would be much better off using the Windows
firewall, assuming you have Windows XP SP2.
You may not be far wrong there! What is a firewall for if not to
keep intruders out. The XP firewall only works in one direction,
ZA looks at both incoming and outgoing traffic.
Ok, so, what does ZA do when malware includes its own TCP/IP stack and talks
directly to the network card??
If you want to keep intruders out then follow advice already given in this
thread. There's no need for me to repeat it. You might also want to stay
away from Outlook Express and Internet Explorer. Use alternatives. This will
help you avoid installing malware accidentally.
|
I don't use OE; I tried Firefox, but didn't like it. The bookmarks
management was appallingly bad, particularly with imported favourites.
| Quote: | You said in another post that two other machines are connected to your
router. Do they continue working when your machine disconnects?
What does ipconfig /all say when you are connected and when you are
disconnected?
I didn't think to check, but while I was re-installing XP on the 'host'
computer, the other two remained connected.
Ok. So, what you meant to say in your original post was "Zone Alarm Pro 6
disconnects the computer it's installed on from the internet regularly and
without being asked to do so."
|
Just that.
| Quote: | Disconnected, I don't know. I'm not going to disconnect just to find out,
as it is a real hastle to get it started again.
Ok so we've established that ZA is the cause of the problem and not your
router.
|
It would seem so.
| Quote: | Since I can only guess at the reason I'll give three possible reasons.
ZA is blocking 1. DHCP, 2. DNS, 3. Path MTU discovery.
1 seems unlikely, 2 is more likely, 3 is also very likely in your case.
There are may other possible reasons, all of which will go away when you
take the best option and remove ZA and follow other advice given in this
thread to secure your computer. You don't need ZA, but I know it's going to
be hard to accept that if you've already wasted your money and can't get a
refund.
|
:o))) They won't give me a refund - I've tried. I eventually got through
to a support person, but this dried up after I told hime the router
did not have its own firewall.
As it happens, it hasn't disconnected me for two days now. I'm keeping
my fingers crossed. I may get a decent router one day.
--
Jock.
I never believe anything until it's been officially
denied. -- Claude Cockburn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jock
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 1:36 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
On 22 Nov 2005 13:55:36 +0100, Volker Birk <bumens@dingens.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Jock <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote:
The XP firewall only works in one direction,
ZA looks at both incoming and outgoing traffic.
This is a fairy tale. It's not possible to have control about what
you're calling "outgoing traffic".
|
It looks like it from what you lot say.
| Quote: | http://www.dingens.org/breakout-en.c
http://www.dingens.org/breakout-en.exe (precompiled binary)
Yes, Zone Alarm Pro is filtering Windows messages now. And of course,
this is completely nonsense, because this means hailing popups. No user
will be able to deal with it (beside the fact, that this easily can be
bypassed, too, by adding an autoclicker for those popups).
|
You mean like doubleclick.net? I seem to be able to handle that
with the hosts file, popups and doubleclick aren't problems.
--
Jock.
I never believe anything until it's been officially
denied. -- Claude Cockburn |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Duane Arnold
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:18 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
Jock <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in
news:3or6o197pr2qeoi32hsk9vmeci4jai7vq7@4ax.com:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:01:53 GMT, Duane Arnold <notme@notme.com
wrote:
Jock <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in
news:kv64o1ddlh8l90uotgidb5vc9iobb6br21@4ax.com:
It's just that I cannot re-initialise/restart the router while ZA
is running. Therefore ZA is the problem!
Some time ago, when I was using the free version of ZA, and I WANTED
to disconnect, I couldn't reconnect from within ZA and couldn't
restart the router. As I understand it you ought to be able to
connect and disconnect from within ZA without having to reboot
the computer, reinstall XP or remortgage your house!
ZA is not part of the router's software that makes the router work is
it?
No, no, the router does not have a built-in firewall if that's
what you mean.
|
The router doesn't have a FW period. It may have SPI at best and some
other FW like features.
| Quote: |
If ZA is not part of the router's software and ZA is running on the
computer with the Windows O/S then how is the problem you're having be
related? ZA has nothing to do with the operations of the router just
like the Windows O/S has nothing to do with the control or operations
of the router. The router has its own software that makes it operate
and it's independent of whatever ZA is doing.
I would agree with that, but the fact remains that the router cannot
be restarted with ZA running!
|
You got some kind of problem and I don't know what it is. BTW, I don't
consider ZA FW software. It's machine level protection at best that
protects a machine services and Internet applications when the machine
has a direct connection to the Internet.
If ZA is in the way, the switch to IPsec that's on the machine that can
stop inbound or outbound by port, protocol or IP to supplement the NAT
router. IPsec won't get in the way.
http://www.petri.co.il/block_ping_traffic_with_ipsec.htm
http://www.analogx.com/contents/articles/ipsec.htm
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/813878
Duane :) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jason Edwards
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:27 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
"Jock" <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:49s6o1h0jkipv51boca5i0gg3rq27ln6fb@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:30:38 -0000, "Jason Edwards"
none1@invalid.invalid
wrote:
"Jock" <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:ui64o1hqhtrj9jgp2d5r2m4gagh4stmn4v@4ax.com...
On Sun, 20 Nov 2005 22:26:26 -0000, "Jason Edwards"
none1@invalid.invalid
wrote:
[cut]
You might also want to stay
away from Outlook Express and Internet Explorer. Use alternatives. This
will
help you avoid installing malware accidentally.
I don't use OE; I tried Firefox, but didn't like it. The bookmarks
management was appallingly bad, particularly with imported favourites.
|
I don't use favorites in either Firefox or IE. When you find a site you want
to make a note of, simply drag the icon in the address bar to the desktop.
Then file it away in a folder or folder of folders and keep it on backup
media. Then you can be sure to find it again in another 20 years when the
site it references has long since disappeared.
| Quote: |
[cut]
You don't need ZA, but I know it's going to
be hard to accept that if you've already wasted your money and can't get
a
refund.
:o))) They won't give me a refund - I've tried. I eventually got
through
to a support person, but this dried up after I told hime the router
did not have its own firewall.
|
Perhaps you should have told them that the router does have its own
firewall. You wouldn't be any less correct than the average NAT box
marketing department.
| Quote: |
As it happens, it hasn't disconnected me for two days now. I'm keeping
my fingers crossed. I may get a decent router one day.
|
I prefer to use my own equipment instead of what my ISP may have supplied if
they'd been given the chance to supply it.
Jason
| Quote: |
--
Jock.
I never believe anything until it's been officially
denied. -- Claude Cockburn |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jason Edwards
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:34 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
"Jock" <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:3or6o197pr2qeoi32hsk9vmeci4jai7vq7@4ax.com...
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:01:53 GMT, Duane Arnold <notme@notme.com> wrote:
Jock <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in
news:kv64o1ddlh8l90uotgidb5vc9iobb6br21@4ax.com:
It's just that I cannot re-initialise/restart the router while ZA
is running. Therefore ZA is the problem!
The router has its own software that makes it operate and it's
independent of whatever ZA is doing.
I would agree with that, but the fact remains that the router cannot
be restarted with ZA running!
|
Sure it can. Just remove its power supply and then reconnect the power
supply.
If the PC with ZA still doesn't work then remove ZA and do not reconnect ZA.
Jason
| Quote: |
I don't know what your problems are but I doubt that it's a router ZA
issue/conflict.
--
Jock.
I never believe anything until it's been officially
denied. -- Claude Cockburn |
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wolfgang Kueter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:48 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
Am Tue, 22 Nov 2005 19:36:30 +0000 schrieb Jock:
| Quote: | You mean like doubleclick.net?
|
No darling, Volker means something else.
| Quote: | I seem to be able to handle that
with the hosts file, popups and doubleclick aren't problems.
|
But communication between windows in windows is (pun intended, honey).
Wolfgang |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Wolfgang Kueter
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 2:56 am Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
Jock wrote:
| Quote: | On Mon, 21 Nov 2005 21:07:39 +0100, Wolfgang Kueter <wolfgang@shconnect.de
wrote:
That is easy:
1. Shut down all unwanted services.
2. Use the winXP built in packet filter if you feel you need to filter
incoming traffic.
3. Install only software from sources you trust and use only software you
trust.
4. Don't run software that has has a bad history concerning security.
5. Always use you computer with user rights, never work with administrator
rights.
6. Use Administrator access only for short periods when you really
need it (install software and patches, change system settings etc.).
All that refers to the box itself and it is is enough. No need for
snake-oil and the result is a safe box.
If you want to do some more: There is nothing wrong to filter traffic on
the perimeter (incoming and outgoing if you like) with a separate device.
If I knew what you were talking about I might be able to do all
this.
|
Sorry, but I can't do much about it that you lack knowledge of
security basics. Get yourself some good books about computer security and
read them. After that read them again.
| Quote: | As it stands the machine is perfectly clean and has been for
years.
|
Are you sure? If yes, well fine. Sit back and relax.
| Quote: | This is not sufficiently serious to worry about too much,
and does not in any way affect security.
I'll try to find a USER newsgroup that talks the language of users.
|
Well, if you prefer to discuss a serious topic in some forum with people
who mostly have really no clue, well, just do so. But don't come back here
whinig because you 'just clicked that checkbox' and afterwards your system
was screwed up.
Wolfgang |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:55 pm Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 21:56:53 +0100, Wolfgang Kueter <wolfgang@shconnect.de>
wrote:
| Quote: | If I knew what you were talking about I might be able to do all
this.
Sorry, but I can't do much about it that you lack knowledge of
security basics. Get yourself some good books about computer security and
read them. After that read them again.
|
I haven't the time for that, even if you have.
| Quote: |
As it stands the machine is perfectly clean and has been for
years.
Are you sure? If yes, well fine. Sit back and relax.
This is not sufficiently serious to worry about too much,
and does not in any way affect security.
I'll try to find a USER newsgroup that talks the language of users.
Well, if you prefer to discuss a serious topic in some forum with people
who mostly have really no clue, well, just do so. But don't come back here
whinig because you 'just clicked that checkbox' and afterwards your system
was screwed up.
|
What's the German for bighead? Ah yes, der Großsprecher will do.
--
Jim. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Jim
Guest
|
| Posted:
Wed Nov 23, 2005 11:59 pm Post subject:
Re: Zone Alarm Disconnects Router from Internet |
|
|
On Tue, 22 Nov 2005 20:27:46 -0000, "Jason Edwards" <none1@invalid.invalid>
wrote:
| Quote: | "Jock" <real_class_a2003@yahoo.fr> wrote in message
news:49s6o1h0jkipv51boca5i0gg3rq27ln6fb@4ax.com...
I don't use OE; I tried Firefox, but didn't like it. The bookmarks
management was appallingly bad, particularly with imported favourites.
I don't use favorites in either Firefox or IE. When you find a site you want
to make a note of, simply drag the icon in the address bar to the desktop.
Then file it away in a folder or folder of folders and keep it on backup
media. Then you can be sure to find it again in another 20 years when the
site it references has long since disappeared.
|
Rather cumbersome?
| Quote: | You don't need ZA, but I know it's going to
be hard to accept that if you've already wasted your money and can't get
a
refund.
:o))) They won't give me a refund - I've tried. I eventually got
through to a support person, but this dried up after I told him the
router >> did not have its own firewall.
Perhaps you should have told them that the router does have its own
firewall.
|
I did.
| Quote: | You wouldn't be any less correct than the average NAT box
marketing department.
As it happens, it hasn't disconnected me for two days now. I'm keeping
my fingers crossed. I may get a decent router one day.
I prefer to use my own equipment instead of what my ISP may have supplied if
they'd been given the chance to supply it.
|
This IS my own equipment.
--
Jim. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
|
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