DComTalk.com

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <elmop-74CAA6.06251531102005@nntp1.usenetserver.com> on Mon, 31 Oct 2005
06:25:15 -0400, "Elmo P. Shagnasty" <elmop@nastydesigns.com> wrote:

In article <SKm9f.6074$qk4.5114@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
John Navas <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:

And yet Sprint and Nextel were able to merge different technologies and
marketing strategies with much more success and fewer hurdles for existing
customers to take advantage of the other network's services.

Sprint and Nextel haven't even started -- they are still operating as they
were before the merger, essentially as two different divisions of a
conglomerate; i.e., all the tough stuff (e.g., migration of Nextel to CDMA,
migration of Nextel spectrum) is yet to be done.

But Sprint isn't telling Nextel customers that to migrate to Sprint,
they'll have to pay $18/line.

Sprint isn't telling Nextel customers that "you're really not Sprint
customers". There is no Sprint analog to the Cingular "blue/orange
customer" thing.

From a *customer* standpoint (I know this is hard for you to imagine),
they've done a better job.

Read what I wrote again, more carefully.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <11mchtvrfr5va42@corp.supernews.com> on Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:35:11 -0500,
Isaiah Beard <sacredpoet@sacredpoet.com> wrote:

John Navas wrote:

Not that it matters,

It doesn't.

I seriously hope you don't work for Cingular, if that's your analysis.

I don't.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <11mcicp89n0a99a@corp.supernews.com> on Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:43:02 -0500,
Isaiah Beard <sacredpoet@sacredpoet.com> wrote:

John Navas wrote:

I personally think Cingular did pretty well considering the difficulties of
the ATTWS integration and migration.

I guess that would be a valid argument, IF a compnay like Sprint wasn't
doing any better. Yet, they are, and they face MANY more integration
challenges than Cingular has. Sprint has two technically incompatible
networks and a multitude of affilaite lawsuits to contend with, and yet
they can retain AND add custoemrs at a pace greater than Cingular. The
network integration excuse is wearing thin.

The difference is that Sprint hasn't even started, whereas Cingular is nearly
done.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

John Navas wrote:

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

I guess that would be a valid argument, IF a compnay like Sprint wasn't
doing any better. Yet, they are, and they face MANY more integration
challenges than Cingular has. Sprint has two technically incompatible
networks and a multitude of affilaite lawsuits to contend with, and yet
they can retain AND add custoemrs at a pace greater than Cingular. The
network integration excuse is wearing thin.


The difference is that Sprint hasn't even started, whereas Cingular is nearly
done.

Haven't started? Funny that. Sprint stores and Nextel stores are
already capable of serving either network's customets. Cross-network
M2M is already in place. Each formet network's respective calling plans
were COMPLEMENTED with the benefits of each side (i.e. Fair and Flexible
with unlimited incoming minutes), rather than simply throwing away good
existing plans and forcing people to confirm to more expensive rates.
And the ability exists to switch from one system to another, WITHOUT any
upgrade or termination fees, is standard practice.

That seems like a hell of a good start to me, and far better than
Cingular's initial attempt.



--
E-mail fudged to thwart spammers.
Transpose the c's and a's in my e-mail address to reply.

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <11mcoso292hr01b@corp.supernews.com> on Mon, 31 Oct 2005 13:33:57 -0500,
Isaiah Beard <sacredpoet@sacredpoet.com> wrote:

John Navas wrote:
[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

I guess that would be a valid argument, IF a compnay like Sprint wasn't
doing any better. Yet, they are, and they face MANY more integration
challenges than Cingular has. Sprint has two technically incompatible
networks and a multitude of affilaite lawsuits to contend with, and yet
they can retain AND add custoemrs at a pace greater than Cingular. The
network integration excuse is wearing thin.


The difference is that Sprint hasn't even started, whereas Cingular is nearly
done.

Haven't started? Funny that. Sprint stores and Nextel stores are
already capable of serving either network's customets. Cross-network
M2M is already in place. Each formet network's respective calling plans
were COMPLEMENTED with the benefits of each side (i.e. Fair and Flexible
with unlimited incoming minutes), rather than simply throwing away good
existing plans and forcing people to confirm to more expensive rates.
And the ability exists to switch from one system to another, WITHOUT any
upgrade or termination fees, is standard practice.

That seems like a hell of a good start to me, and far better than
Cingular's initial attempt.

To be clear, >> in terms of network and customer migration and integration <<
(i.e., the really hard stuff), the difference is that Sprint hasn't even
started, whereas Cingular is nearly done.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

In article <11mcoso292hr01b@corp.supernews.com>,
Isaiah Beard <sacredpoet@sacredpoet.com> wrote:

Sprint stores and Nextel stores are
already capable of serving either network's customets. Cross-network
M2M is already in place. Each formet network's respective calling plans
were COMPLEMENTED with the benefits of each side (i.e. Fair and Flexible
with unlimited incoming minutes), rather than simply throwing away good
existing plans and forcing people to confirm to more expensive rates.
And the ability exists to switch from one system to another, WITHOUT any
upgrade or termination fees, is standard practice.

Looks like Sprint has gone within a couple months much, much farther
than Cingular has managed to go so far.

In article <bcn9f.6154$qk4.3386@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
John Navas <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:

From a *customer* standpoint (I know this is hard for you to imagine),
they've done a better job.

Read what I wrote again, more carefully.

Sorry, John. You read what *I* wrote.

I'm a customer. A plain jane customer. And Cingular did a far, far
worse job initially than Sprint has done.

I know that because I was there.

I still am, as a matter of fact. I'm not a Cingular customer; I'm a
"Cingular blue" customer, which means I get inferior treatment in the
end.

"John Navas" <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
news:6At9f.7173$qk4.139@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

To be clear, >> in terms of network and customer migration and integration

(i.e., the really hard stuff), the difference is that Sprint hasn't even
started, whereas Cingular is nearly done.

Network integration is done- there are no plans to combine the networks,
only to slowly migrate consumer and small business accounts to the CDMA
network over the next five years. As mentioned in another post, rate plans
and services have already integrated across networks. The only possible
work to be done is a combined billing system, but that will much easier than
it is for Cingular- both Nextel and Sprint use products (Amdocs and
Convergys I believe) that contain the functionality and scaleabiltiy to
easily handle both subscriber bases. Sprint and Nextel had many integrated
functionality by the time they went to market with the new compnay Cingular
does not have this scenario going for them.

So, Mr. Wizard- what were you saying? It looks like Sprint is almost done
with integration and with a little more work will be able to make different
technological networks operate more seamlessly than Cingular does with two
identical networks. How many quarters into the merger are they? And they
got beat by a company in net ads by quite a bit that closed a merger during
the quarter. Actually they got beat by all of the big players in net adds.
I'd be willing to bet the hassle with trying to get combined Cingulsr
service led to a large decline in their net ads, and the opposite program of
waiving fees for an in-compnay switch helpeed Sprint.

Now would be a good time to explain your position, as many of us here have
hard team believing your claims when other well documented and vocally
supported analysis have been offered that contradict you factless claims.
Where is all of this work that Sprint hasn't even started?

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 01:51:52 +0000 (UTC),
in article <dk3tbo$nl5$1@blue.rahul.net>,
c.c.eiftj@XReXXDoesX.usenet.us.com (Rahul Dhesi) writes...

Philip J. Koenig <See_email_@ddress_below.This_one_is.invalid> writes:

So are you denying that John Navas works for you?

Must have missed the question. Working against me seems more
like it. :-)

Aha! Evaded the question entirely!!

Hehe. Hail Discordia! :-)



--
* Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which *
* differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are *
* even incapable of forming such opinions. -- Albert Einstein *
* *
* To send email, remove numbers and spaces: pjkusenet64 @ ekahuna27 . com *
* Simple answers are for simple minds. Try a new way of looking at things. *

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 06:25:15 -0400,
in article <elmop-74CAA6.06251531102005@nntp1.usenetserver.com>,
elmop@nastydesigns.com (Elmo P. Shagnasty) writes...

In article <SKm9f.6074$qk4.5114@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
John Navas <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote:

And yet Sprint and Nextel were able to merge different technologies and
marketing strategies with much more success and fewer hurdles for existing
customers to take advantage of the other network's services.

Sprint and Nextel haven't even started -- they are still operating as they
were before the merger, essentially as two different divisions of a
conglomerate; i.e., all the tough stuff (e.g., migration of Nextel to CDMA,
migration of Nextel spectrum) is yet to be done.

But Sprint isn't telling Nextel customers that to migrate to Sprint,
they'll have to pay $18/line.

Sprint isn't telling Nextel customers that "you're really not Sprint
customers". There is no Sprint analog to the Cingular "blue/orange
customer" thing.

Boy, I had some personal experience with that one - even worse
than what you mention. What a nasty way to merge 2 companies.
(was so pissed-off we switched that customer to Verizon, so
there's one small part of those "churn" statistics for ya)



--
* Few people are capable of expressing with equanimity opinions which *
* differ from the prejudices of their social environment. Most people are *
* even incapable of forming such opinions. -- Albert Einstein *
* *
* To send email, remove numbers and spaces: pjkusenet64 @ ekahuna27 . com *
* Simple answers are for simple minds. Try a new way of looking at things. *

"John Navas" <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
news:SKm9f.6074$qk4.5114@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

With all due respect, that doesn't follow -- totally different things -- a
CS
survey is a random sample of a universe, whereas this is just a tiny part
of
that universe.

Then it is a random sample.

It would only follow if this tiny part has any meaningful
impart on such a CS survey, which is doesn't because it's way too small.

Read again (real slow this time). The sample here could very easily compare
to the sample for any one of the major surveys. The only thing that makes
it way too small is your opinion.

The numbers bear themselves out. The latest figures are in, and
Cingular couldn't even break a million net gains this quarter (0.867
mil), while Sprint (1.3 mil), T-Mobile (0.972 mil), and Verizon (1.9mil)
soundly surpassed Cingular in net adds. It's a sad testament to
Cingualr when the #2, #3 AND #4 carriers below it are gaining faster
than they can keep up.

I personally think Cingular did pretty well considering the difficulties
of the ATTWS integration and migration.

And yet Sprint and Nextel were able to merge different technologies and
marketing strategies with much more success and fewer hurdles for existing
customers to take advantage of the other network's services.

Sprint and Nextel haven't even started -- they are still operating as they
were before the merger, essentially as two different divisions of a
conglomerate; i.e., all the tough stuff (e.g., migration of Nextel to
CDMA,
migration of Nextel spectrum) is yet to be done.

Cingular
created many unnecessary headaches for their subscribers and the numbers
are
starting to show it..

I respectfully disagree (on both counts).

And you can disagree, but you are wrong as substantiated by fact and not
opinion (on both counts).

Scott wrote:

I respectfully disagree (on both counts).



And you can disagree, but you are wrong as substantiated by fact and not
opinion (on both counts).

"However, the merger has been a factor in losing some users. Cingular
reported that customer turnover, or churn, was 2.3 percent, up from 2.2
percent in the second quarter and almost twice as high as Verizon's most
recently announced figure of 1.2 percent."

"Average revenue per user declined 5.2 percent to $49.65"

The two main worries for carriers are churn and ARPU.

Verizon has an amazingly low churn rate of 1.3% and their ARPU is up to
$50.13.

A couple of more horrific quarters for Cingular, and Verizon will pass
them in terms of subscribers, not that means anything except bragging
rights. The important thing is that CDMA is increasing its lead over GSM
in the U.S.

"SMS" <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote in message
news:u5V9f.1744$te3.28968@typhoon.sonic.net...

Scott wrote:

I respectfully disagree (on both counts).



And you can disagree, but you are wrong as substantiated by fact and not
opinion (on both counts).

"However, the merger has been a factor in losing some users. Cingular
reported that customer turnover, or churn, was 2.3 percent, up from 2.2
percent in the second quarter and almost twice as high as Verizon's most
recently announced figure of 1.2 percent."

"Average revenue per user declined 5.2 percent to $49.65"

The two main worries for carriers are churn and ARPU.

Agreed, and it appears that Cingular's treatment of former ATTW customers is
a leading reason for the decline. Charging transactional fees for full
system funtionality and the advantages of one network over the other is
moronic. Having a prime and subprime subnetwork is equally as foolish.

Maybe Sprint learned something by watching all of this. Rate plans and
pricing are similar between networks. The only difference between network
offerings are those that aren't possible technically (ie, Direct Connect on
the CDMA network). There is no pressure to migrate and customers aren't
being strong armed into moving over to the CDMA network. By the time this
becomes an issue for the company, most will probably have voluntarily
migrated through promotions and offers.

The other thing I notice- Sprint and Verizon seem to be focusing most of
their energy on 4G, while Cingular is struggling with stabilizing their
subscriber base. By the time they have accomplished this, they could be
years behind the competition.

Verizon has an amazingly low churn rate of 1.3% and their ARPU is up to
$50.13.

A couple of more horrific quarters for Cingular, and Verizon will pass
them in terms of subscribers, not that means anything except bragging
rights. The important thing is that CDMA is increasing its lead over GSM
in the U.S.


And it could be that we are witnessing the second chapter of the ATTW

implosion- poor management and marketing decisions that end up in customers
leaving by the boatload.

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <BuSdneQIpKfZifXenZ2dnUVZ_tGdnZ2d@adelphia.com> on Tue, 1 Nov 2005 18:20:02
-0700, "Scott" <how.do@you.do> wrote:

"John Navas" <spamfilter0@navasgroup.com> wrote in message
news:SKm9f.6074$qk4.5114@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

With all due respect, that doesn't follow -- totally different things -- a CS
survey is a random sample of a universe, whereas this is just a tiny part of
that universe.

Then it is a random sample.

It's actually a self-selected sample, which is something else entirely.

It would only follow if this tiny part has any meaningful
impart on such a CS survey, which [it] doesn't because it's way too small.

Read again (real slow this time). The sample here could very easily compare
to the sample for any one of the major surveys. The only thing that makes
it way too small is your opinion.

Read again (real slow this time). As I've explained, it's not at all
comparable.

I respectfully disagree (on both counts).

And you can disagree, but you are wrong as substantiated by fact and not
opinion (on both counts).

That's just your opinion. So noted.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>

[POSTED TO alt.cellular.cingular - REPLY ON USENET PLEASE]

In <u5V9f.1744$te3.28968@typhoon.sonic.net> on Wed, 02 Nov 2005 02:00:58 GMT,
SMS <scharf.steven@geemail.com> wrote:

Scott wrote:

I respectfully disagree (on both counts).

And you can disagree, but you are wrong as substantiated by fact and not
opinion (on both counts).

"However, the merger has been a factor in losing some users. Cingular
reported that customer turnover, or churn, was 2.3 percent, up from 2.2
percent in the second quarter and almost twice as high as Verizon's most
recently announced figure of 1.2 percent."

"Average revenue per user declined 5.2 percent to $49.65"

The two main worries for carriers are churn and ARPU.

Verizon has an amazingly low churn rate of 1.3% and their ARPU is up to
$50.13.

Cingular's churn was an increase from the prior quarter, but lower than the
year earlier quarter, an increase of only 0.1, and there was still a net
subscriber gain of 876,000. So while there's some apparent impact from
ATTWS-to-Cingular, TDMA-to-GSM, and network integration, that impact appears
to be relatively small and manageable.

ARPU difference of less than 1%; i.e., insignificant.

A couple of more horrific quarters for Cingular, ...

Actually a good quarter:

Cingular's third-quarter revenues totaled $8.7 billion, up 6.2
percent versus pro forma revenue of $8.2 billion for the third
quarter of 2004 and up 1.6 percent versus the second quarter of this
year.

Reported operating income totaled $657 million, up 30.4 percent from
$504 million in the second quarter of this year.

Cingular's third-quarter operating expenses included $241 million of
direct merger integration costs and $96 million in hurricane-related
costs. Excluding these costs, operating income would have totaled
$994 million, up 40.4 percent from a comparable $708 million in the
preceding quarter. Excluding an additional $396 million of noncash
expenses for the amortization of intangibles that were acquired as
part of Cingular's merger with AT&T Wireless, third-quarter operating
income would have been $1.4 billion, up from a comparable $1.2
billion in the second quarter of 2005.

The important thing is that CDMA is increasing its lead over GSM
in the U.S.

GSM is now the leading cellular technology in the USA.

--
Best regards, HELP FOR CINGULAR GSM & SONY ERICSSON PHONES:
John Navas <http://navasgrp.home.att.net/#Cingular>