| Author |
Message |
Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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 Posted:
Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:04 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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T. Sean Weintz <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Yup. Agreed. I was imprecise as well. Receiving MTA should
NOT send bounce, senders MTA sending a bounce is not that
bad as long as it is not an open relay and only accepts
"from" addresses from it's domain.
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senders MTA should only send bounces for mail that it sent.
And as you correctly point out, not to a return path
other than from whence it would accept mail.
| Quote: | What drives me crazy is relaying, where the relay accepts
EVEYTHING and then sneds a bounce if the mail cannot be
delivered to the final destination. The backscatter from
that when a spam run hits it...
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Open relays are bad. Bad. Bad. Bad. A leftover from the
days of bang path addressing.
-- Robert |
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Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jul 07, 2005 11:12 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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Frankster <Frank@spam2trash.com> wrote:
| Quote: | Running a secure well configured spam-free mail server is not
enough. You've got to get over the blacklist owners grudge
against your ISP. Even when the ISP is NOT HANDLING YOUR MAIL.
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Entirely true. The blacklist operator is using you to pressure
your ISP. Some people think that's fair. Others don't. Too much
of this [legit mail blocked], and people stop using the blacklist.
A buddy at a local firm lost a big email contract award in
a three day-old blacklist. It was banished in a big hurry.
-- Robert |
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David Schwartz
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:00 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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"Frankster" <Frank@SPAM2TRASH.com> wrote in message
news:R4CdnVHNcd7v_FDfRVn-iA@giganews.com...
| Quote: | How would you feel if your mail server (and leased static IPs) had NEVER
sent spam, yet, you were blacklisted because the list keeper had an issue
with your ISP, and blacklisted the ISPs whole block of addresses. Some of
which the ISP had leased to you?
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It would largely depend upon the legitimacy of the issue. If the issue
was legitimate, and the ISP didn't handle it well, I'd be mad at my ISP. If
the issue was bogus or the blacklist didn't handle it well, I'd be mad at
the blacklist.
With the blacklists that matter, this type of issue has, in my
exeperience, largely been the case of a policy difference between the ISP
and the blacklist. That is, the ISP believes its policy is legitimate and
the blacklist does not. Remember, it's the purpose of the blacklist to list
those ISPs whose policies are not legitimate in its judgment. As long as it
is enforing the policies it claims to be enforcing, the blacklist is doing
its job, relaying accurate information.
| Quote: | That is one of my problems.
Running a secure well configured spam-free mail server is not enough.
You've got to get over the blacklist owners grudge against your ISP. Even
when the ISP is NOT HANDLING YOUR MAIL. Call that "accurate"? I don't.
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It really depends if it is just a grudge or a legitimate complaint. A
blacklist is only as good as its reputation for accuracy. A blacklist nobody
uses can't hurt you at all, and the only reason someone uses a blacklist is
because it has a reputation for accuracy. (Unless they're stupid and just
choose blacklists randomly, in which chase they have every right to DoS
themselves if they want to.)
DS |
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T. Sean Weintz
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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Frankster wrote:
| Quote: | "T. Sean Weintz" <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote in message
news:11co4k9ke6r2s33@news.supernews.com...
Robert Redelmeier wrote:
These are your value judgements. Do not try to impose them upon
others unless you are willing for them to impose theirs upon you.
Exactly the point I was making.
I have slightly different values. I deplore dropped email,
and deliberately turn my ISPs filters off. I'd rather get
100 spam than lose one legit email. Some email still gets
dropped (SMTP timeouts, I suspect)
I don't use ISP filtering either.
I don't recommend it.
I/we use my/our own mail servers (one at home for my home domain, and
another at my job) I surely would not trust filtering that I could not
control to some extent. If something shows up being blocked that should
not be (which is VERY rare in my expoerience) I want the ability to see
the rejection on the server, the ability to whitelist by IP, etc.
How would you feel if your mail server (and leased static IPs) had NEVER
sent spam, yet, you were blacklisted because the list keeper had an issue
with your ISP, and blacklisted the ISPs whole block of addresses. Some of
which the ISP had leased to you?
|
Well, when that happened to me I demanded the ISP terminate the
offending accounts that had generated the complaints. When a couple days
went by and I saw the idiots were still up, I switched to another ISP.
What list were/are you on?
| Quote: |
That is one of my problems.
|
Did this happen before or after the IP block became yours? If your ISP
had blocks listed before you signed up, you have no-one to blame but
yourself.
In any event, getting delisted from most major lists is not hard if the
ISP does what it should.
| Quote: |
Running a secure well configured spam-free mail server is not enough.
|
No. Running a secure well configured spam-free mail server from an ISP
that does not harbor spammers is enough. That last part is critical.
| Quote: | You've
got to get over the blacklist owners grudge against your ISP. Even when the
ISP is NOT HANDLING YOUR MAIL. Call that "accurate"? I don't.
|
The lists that do that don't claim to be lists of spammers. They claim
to be lists of spam friendly sources -- ie: isps that do not nuke
spammers in a timely fashion, or allow ROKSO listed people to get
accounts, or host websites advertised in spam, etc. People who use these
lists would seem to agree this is a GODD thing to block (people like me,
for instance) |
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David Schwartz
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 08, 2005 6:41 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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"T. Sean Weintz" <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote in message
news:11cr6p3nde74fcb@news.supernews.com...
| Quote: | The lists that do that don't claim to be lists of spammers. They claim to
be lists of spam friendly sources -- ie: isps that do not nuke spammers in
a timely fashion, or allow ROKSO listed people to get accounts, or host
websites advertised in spam, etc. People who use these lists would seem to
agree this is a GODD thing to block (people like me, for instance)
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I agree with all but the part about hosting websites advertised in spam.
It is almost never possible to determine that the web site had any
connection to the spam and joe jobs are common.
DS |
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Frankster
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 08, 2005 7:45 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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| Quote: | What list were/are you on?
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I'm not on any of 'em anymore. However, I was on about 15 of 144 at one
time. I finally got myself removed from every one (just rechecked). So,
what am I going on about? It just pisses me off that someone can get caught
up in this deal after PURCHASING (as in BUYING FOR HARD CASH) IP addresses
to use, and then be punished because someone doesn't like the practices of
the ISP you bought them from. Especially, in my case, since I purchased the
IPs directly from a damn backbone carrier (QWEST). A huge block of Qwest
owned IP were blocked. So, when they leased them out to someone like me who
handles their own mail, they were already blacklisted.
I actually finally got removed from all the blacklists communicating
directly with the respective blacklist keepers. But since I never sent any
spam, it just pisses me off I had to do this. I would guess that a ton of
people don't even know HOW to deal with these blacklist keepers.
Having said that, I will admit that many of 'em do a pretty good job of
providing info on why your IP was blacklisted (notice I didn't say "why YOU
were blacklisted" - It's all just a numbers game and depends on what ISP
owns what numbered IPs a lot of times). When they are later leased out to
you, you pay the penalty for any real or perceived ISP indiscretions.
Okay, I'm done venting. I still think the whole blacklist thing is archaic.
I don't use them in my server. Instead I use a weighted spam identification
method that is included with my server. Works well for me. It evaluates
emails on an individual basis, not just on an IP basis.
-Frank |
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David Schwartz
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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"Frankster" <Frank@SPAM2TRASH.com> wrote in message
news:mrSdncSTQ-ktdVDfRVn-uQ@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Okay, I'm done venting. I still think the whole blacklist thing is
archaic. I don't use them in my server. Instead I use a weighted spam
identification method that is included with my server. Works well for me.
It evaluates emails on an individual basis, not just on an IP basis.
|
A blacklist is just another factor that you could or might weigh when
making the decision of whether to accept a mail or not.
If you used blacklists, you could either:
A) Reject fewer valid emails, or
B) Accept less spam.
This is true unless you think an email from a blacklisted server is just
as likely to be spam as an email from a non-blacklisted server. Do you
really believe that?
DS |
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T. Sean Weintz
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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Frankster wrote:
| Quote: | What list were/are you on?
I'm not on any of 'em anymore. However, I was on about 15 of 144 at one
time. I finally got myself removed from every one (just rechecked). So,
what am I going on about? It just pisses me off that someone can get caught
up in this deal after PURCHASING (as in BUYING FOR HARD CASH) IP addresses
to use,
|
Did you check them before paying? If not, I'd say you were not doing
your job. That is step 1 before signing any contracts for internet
service - check to so if the IP space you are getting has a bad net rep!
See if you can find out who had it last, etc. You could wind up with
even worse than mail blacklisting if you don't! For instance there have
been cases of providers selling hijacked IP blocks that were not theirs
to sell in the first place, etc.
| Quote: | and then be punished because someone doesn't like the practices of
the ISP you bought them from.
|
As a mail server operator, it is my right to block anyone that our
organization decides should blocked. Spammy ISP's fall into that
category here in some cases.
| Quote: | Especially, in my case, since I purchased the
IPs directly from a damn backbone carrier (QWEST).
|
Even tier one providors can wind up on lists if they ignore enough LARTs
| Quote: | A huge block of Qwest
owned IP were blocked. So, when they leased them out to someone like me who
handles their own mail, they were already blacklisted.
|
Sounds like your problem is with qwest for selling you IPs with a bad
reputation.
| Quote: |
I actually finally got removed from all the blacklists communicating
directly with the respective blacklist keepers.
|
Nice to hear the system is working as it should.
| Quote: | But since I never sent any
spam, it just pisses me off I had to do this. I would guess that a ton of
people don't even know HOW to deal with these blacklist keepers.
|
You should be pissed at QWEST that you had to do this. They had to have
known the space was listed. It does not get listed (in most lists
anyway) without them being notified that there is a problem.
| Quote: |
Having said that, I will admit that many of 'em do a pretty good job of
providing info on why your IP was blacklisted (notice I didn't say "why YOU
were blacklisted" - It's all just a numbers game and depends on what ISP
owns what numbered IPs a lot of times). When they are later leased out to
you, you pay the penalty for any real or perceived ISP indiscretions.
|
Yes. And the ISP should know better than to lease them out without
either warning the customer or havoing them cleaned up first.
| Quote: | Okay, I'm done venting. I still think the whole blacklist thing is archaic.
I don't use them in my server. Instead I use a weighted spam identification
method that is included with my server. Works well for me. It evaluates
emails on an individual basis, not just on an IP basis.
|
Good for you. I use a mix of both. Guess which tends to be more accurate
(less false postives, more actual spam filtered)?....... yup, the lists.
Hands down. |
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Frankster
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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| Quote: | If you used blacklists, you could either:
A) Reject fewer valid emails, or
B) Accept less spam.
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You forgot C) Or reject more valid emails.
And I think B) should be: Accept less email from servers that could
POTENTIALLY have spam. Anytime you accept less email from any server you
reduce the potential spam. We need a balance :)
| Quote: | This is true unless you think an email from a blacklisted server is
just as likely to be spam as an email from a non-blacklisted server. Do
you really believe that?
|
I believe there is a big problem with your (apparent) philosophy. That is,
just because a server was once used to send spam does not mean that 100
percent of that servers offerings in the future are going to be spam. So,
what's the percentage? 10/90? 50/50? 90/10? Either way, by blocking a
server entirely you ARE going to lose valid emails.
-Frank |
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T. Sean Weintz
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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David Schwartz wrote:
| Quote: | "T. Sean Weintz" <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote in message
news:11cr6p3nde74fcb@news.supernews.com...
The lists that do that don't claim to be lists of spammers. They claim to
be lists of spam friendly sources -- ie: isps that do not nuke spammers in
a timely fashion, or allow ROKSO listed people to get accounts, or host
websites advertised in spam, etc. People who use these lists would seem to
agree this is a GODD thing to block (people like me, for instance)
I agree with all but the part about hosting websites advertised in spam.
It is almost never possible to determine that the web site had any
connection to the spam and joe jobs are common.
DS
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Let me elobrate - It's servers that host spam advertized websites that
remain up after the provider has been LARTed a few times, but refuses to
do anything. |
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David Schwartz
Guest
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| Posted:
Fri Jul 08, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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"Frankster" <Frank@SPAM2TRASH.com> wrote in message
news:TYedndEO6eOo71PfRVn-vw@giganews.com...
| Quote: | If you used blacklists, you could either:
A) Reject fewer valid emails, or
B) Accept less spam.
You forgot C) Or reject more valid emails.
|
That is mathematically impossible unless you believe that an email from
a server in a blacklist is more likely to be spam than an email from a
server that's not. For any blacklist where that was so, you wouldn't use the
blacklist.
| Quote: | And I think B) should be: Accept less email from servers that could
POTENTIALLY have spam. Anytime you accept less email from any server you
reduce the potential spam. We need a balance :)
|
I don't think you understand what I'm saying. I'm saying that you have
elected to reject spam using a statistical scheme. You will reject some
percentage of valid email and you will accept some percentage of spam. I'm
saying that with a blacklist, you could improve those percentages.
| Quote: | This is true unless you think an email from a blacklisted server is
just as likely to be spam as an email from a non-blacklisted server. Do
you really believe that?
I believe there is a big problem with your (apparent) philosophy. That
is, just because a server was once used to send spam does not mean that
100 percent of that servers offerings in the future are going to be spam.
So, what's the percentage? 10/90? 50/50? 90/10? Either way, by blocking
a server entirely you ARE going to lose valid emails.
|
You aren't reading what I'm saying. I never said anything about blocking
a server entirely.
DS |
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David Schwartz
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Jul 09, 2005 12:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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"T. Sean Weintz" <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote in message
news:11ct86desp8l6b6@news.supernews.com...
| Quote: | Let me elobrate - It's servers that host spam advertized websites that
remain up after the provider has been LARTed a few times, but refuses to
do anything.
|
What should the provider do?
I work for the company that owns and hosts the "webmaster.com" domain.
We get advertised in spam quite a bit (usually do to stupidity, typos, or
joe jobs). What should our provider do to us?
DS |
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Frankster
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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| Quote: | Did you check them before paying? If not, I'd say you were not doing your
job.
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Isn't that a bit like saying that if you left your keys in the car you are
more responsible than the guy who stole it?
Anyway, I paid on-line for an automated assignment of a block of IPs. I had
no ability on the on-line form to see in advance which IPs would be spit out
by the system. Granted, afterward, I could have checked, and bitched, if
necessary. But at the time I did this I was not running a mail server
anyway. I started that later.
Anyway, again... I am getting kinda tired of this now (LOL). I think we've
run the subject to death here in the xdsl forum :) I'm happy to agree to
disagree. Thanks for your input.
-Frank |
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David Schwartz
Guest
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| Posted:
Sat Jul 09, 2005 8:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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"Frankster" <Frank@SPAM2TRASH.com> wrote in message
news:C_idndJtOKC62FLfRVn-pw@giganews.com...
| Quote: | Did you check them before paying? If not, I'd say you were not doing
your job.
Isn't that a bit like saying that if you left your keys in the car you are
more responsible than the guy who stole it?
|
No, it is saying that you are both responsible. One party's
responsibility does not reduce the other party's at all. There is not some
fixed amount of responsibility to be divided up. The amount of
responsibility can be more or less as a whole.
The more extreme example is the guy who walks through a bad neighborhood
at night with a dozen $100 bills peeking out of his shirt pocket. He is an
idiot and is responsible for what happens to him. However, this in no way
means that the criminal who robs him is any less responsible than if they
had robbed someone else.
It does not have to be the case that every robbery has the exact same
amount of blame to go around so that any blame that goes to the victim is
taken away from the culprit.
DS |
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T. Sean Weintz
Guest
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| Posted:
Mon Jul 11, 2005 10:10 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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David Schwartz wrote:
| Quote: |
What should the provider do?
I work for the company that owns and hosts the "webmaster.com" domain.
We get advertised in spam quite a bit (usually do to stupidity, typos, or
joe jobs). What should our provider do to us?
DS
|
Generally such an account should be terminated right off, of course. At
least in the case of "stupidity". (by which I assume you mean real spam
from someone who did not know any better?)
How does something get spamvertized via a typo? I'm skeptical of that.
Joe Jobs - if the account can PROVE it is a joe job, then of course
don't terminate. However given that it's one of the most common
excuse/lies spammers have, the providor should never take a claim of a
joe job at face value. At bare minimum make them sign a notorized
affidavit stating that they have not hired any marketers to advertize
their site via email, etc. If they refuse to do so, then obviously they
are full of $hit... |
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