| Author |
Message |
T. Sean Weintz
Guest
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 Posted:
Wed Jul 06, 2005 12:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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David Schwartz wrote:
| Quote: |
What "new technologies" are you referring to? I know of no new
technology that eliminates the need for blacklists. If you know something
nobody else does, perhaps you could share.
DS
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Exactly. I use a bayesian filter AND filter on SPF records, and STILL
over 50% of my incoming spam is caught by blacklists, not the other two
methods. |
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David Schwartz
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 06, 2005 8:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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"T. Sean Weintz" <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote in message
news:11cm0cjheom2i2a@news.supernews.com...
| Quote: | David Schwartz wrote:
What "new technologies" are you referring to? I know of no new
technology that eliminates the need for blacklists. If you know something
nobody else does, perhaps you could share.
Exactly. I use a bayesian filter AND filter on SPF records, and STILL over
50% of my incoming spam is caught by blacklists, not the other two
methods.
|
I doubt he meant bayesian filtering anyway. His whole problem with
blacklists was that it excludes some legitimate mail. Bayesian filters do so
too. The classic example is when your sister forwards you a scam she was
considering responding to. Since the forwarded email is nearly identical to
the scam email, your bayesian filters will ensure you never see it, and
never warn your sister.
DS |
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Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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Frankster <Frank@spam2trash.com> wrote:
| Quote: | The biggest problem with the blacklists are keeping them
updated and keeping them fair to all ISPs. Also, there is
|
They also seem to go through a life-cycle. Grow up good and popular,
then eventually go activist, corrupted by power. And die.
| Quote: | Example: You know as well as I do that AOL, MS HOTMAIL, YAHOO
and all the big names send out tons of spam (yes, I know it's
actually people abusing their systems, but that doesn't matter
|
I'm not sure this is true. I believe AOL has fairly rigid
and
| Quote: | for blacklisting). YET THEY ARE NOT ON THE BLACKLIST LIKE OTHER
SMALLER IPSs ARE!!!! HMM!!!!!
|
Not that I approve of blacklists, but I suppose it is a
ratio thing. Anyone sending out too high a proportion of spam
to legit email over some observation period "makes the cut"
and gets on the list.
-- Robert |
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Frankster
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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The biggest problem with the blacklists are keeping them updated and keeping
them fair to all ISPs. Also, there is no "authorized authority" to make
decision on who should be on a blacklist. Just a bunch of cowboys taking
their best guess. No one appointed these cowboys. They just do what they
want to.
Example: You know as well as I do that AOL, MS HOTMAIL, YAHOO and all the
big names send out tons of spam (yes, I know it's actually people abusing
their systems, but that doesn't matter for blacklisting). YET THEY ARE NOT
ON THE BLACKLIST LIKE OTHER SMALLER IPSs ARE!!!! HMM!!!!!
It's a bunch of bullshit.
-Frank
"T. Sean Weintz" <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote in message
news:11cm0l1i3106n0b@news.supernews.com...
| Quote: | Frankster wrote:
There is nothing wrong with my attitude. I run a mail server and I comply
will all the recommended standards to include having a reverse lookup and
an SPF record.
However, the blacklist method of identifying spam is a technology that
has reached the end of its useful life. The new technologies are much
better. And they can focus on true spam rather than an IP address that
has the POTENTIAL of sending spam based on past history.
-Frank
My point is I think forcing ISP's to clean up their users acts (or
terminate their accounts more aggressively) is more important than making
sure every piece of valid email gets through.
If a piece of mail is that important, you send it certified rerurn receipt
or fedex anyway, not via email!
If verizon won't take the steps needed to stay out of the blacklist, then
their usres should switch ISP's or learn to live with mail service that
will not work to certain destinations. |
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Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 06, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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T. Sean Weintz <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote:
| Quote: | My point is I think forcing ISP's to clean up their users acts
(or terminate their accounts more aggressively) is more important
than making sure every piece of valid email gets through.
|
These are your value judgements. Do not try to impose them upon
others unless you are willing for them to impose theirs upon you.
I have slightly different values. I deplore dropped email,
and deliberately turn my ISPs filters off. I'd rather get
100 spam than lose one legit email. Some email still gets
dropped (SMTP timeouts, I suspect)
If you really want filtering, subscribe to AOL.
-- Robert |
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Neil W Rickert
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:34 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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"T. Sean Weintz" <strap@hanh-ct.org> writes:
| Quote: | I disagree. It's been YEARS since I have seen spam actual come from a
hotmail or AOL IP. I HAVE seen forged hotmail and aol return addresses,
but of course that's not the same thing.
|
I don't see much coming from AOL. I see frequent 419 scam mails from
hotmail and yahoo. Two from hotmail hit my spamtrap mailboxes this
morning. |
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T. Sean Weintz
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:11 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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Frankster wrote:
| Quote: | The biggest problem with the blacklists are keeping them updated and keeping
them fair to all ISPs. Also, there is no "authorized authority" to make
decision on who should be on a blacklist. Just a bunch of cowboys taking
their best guess. No one appointed these cowboys. They just do what they
want to.
Example: You know as well as I do that AOL, MS HOTMAIL, YAHOO and all the
big names send out tons of spam (yes, I know it's actually people abusing
their systems, but that doesn't matter for blacklisting). YET THEY ARE NOT
ON THE BLACKLIST LIKE OTHER SMALLER IPSs ARE!!!! HMM!!!!!
It's a bunch of bullshit.
-Frank
|
I disagree. It's been YEARS since I have seen spam actual come from a
hotmail or AOL IP. I HAVE seen forged hotmail and aol return addresses,
but of course that's not the same thing.
I think most of the blacklists are pretty darn accurate. Some are better
than others, but most are pretty good.
Unless you can point to a specific cases that illustrate your point, I
have to disagree. |
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T. Sean Weintz
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:14 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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Robert Redelmeier wrote:
| Quote: | Not that I approve of blacklists, but I suppose it is a
ratio thing. Anyone sending out too high a proportion of spam
to legit email over some observation period "makes the cut"
and gets on the list.
-- Robert
|
Depends on the list.
Some of them simply have trap mailboxes set up. ANY mail sent to the
trap address automatically causes the sending IP to be blacklisted. I
like those - accurate and not prone to human error.
Others are merely list of dynamic IP blocks, which of course should not
be directly sending mail.
Still others are lists of hosts that have been scanned and determined to
be open relays. |
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T. Sean Weintz
Guest
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| Posted:
Wed Jul 06, 2005 10:19 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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Robert Redelmeier wrote:
| Quote: |
These are your value judgements. Do not try to impose them upon
others unless you are willing for them to impose theirs upon you.
|
Exactly the point I was making.
| Quote: |
I have slightly different values. I deplore dropped email,
and deliberately turn my ISPs filters off. I'd rather get
100 spam than lose one legit email. Some email still gets
dropped (SMTP timeouts, I suspect)
|
I don't use ISP filtering either.
I don't recommend it.
I/we use my/our own mail servers (one at home for my home domain, and
another at my job) I surely would not trust filtering that I could not
control to some extent. If something shows up being blocked that should
not be (which is VERY rare in my expoerience) I want the ability to see
the rejection on the server, the ability to whitelist by IP, etc. |
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T. Sean Weintz
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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Robert Redelmeier wrote:
| Quote: |
They should still end bounce messages.
-- Robert
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No. In this day and age no server should send bounce messages ever, for
any reason!
The 5xx error message the sever generates should be enough for the
sender to know there is a problem. |
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Robert Redelmeier
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
|
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T. Sean Weintz <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote:
| Quote: | Some of them simply have trap mailboxes set up. ANY mail sent
to the trap address automatically causes the sending IP to be
blacklisted. I like those - accurate and not prone to human error.
|
Good against dictionary attacks, but the trap address has
to remain secret and rotated or it is subject to DoS.
| Quote: | Others are merely list of dynamic IP blocks, which of course
should not be directly sending mail.
|
Why not? I do it all the time. Partly for reliability, partly
to avoid email being controlled through approved senders.
| Quote: | Still others are lists of hosts that have been scanned and
determined to be open relays.
|
They should still end bounce messages.
-- Robert |
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David Ross
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jul 07, 2005 12:20 am Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
|
|
| Quote: | The biggest problem with the blacklists are keeping them updated and keeping
them fair to all ISPs. Also, there is no "authorized authority" to make
decision on who should be on a blacklist. Just a bunch of cowboys taking
their best guess. No one appointed these cowboys. They just do what they
want to.
I run several mail servers. I use blacklists with them. But I use the |
lists I use for very specific reasons. It's my server, my choice. |
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T. Sean Weintz
Guest
|
| Posted:
Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
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Robert Redelmeier wrote:
| Quote: | T. Sean Weintz <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote:
No. In this day and age no server should send bounce
messages ever, for any reason!
Agreed with respect to the receiver MTA. I was being imprecise.
The 5xx error message the sever generates should be enough
for the sender to know there is a problem.
Yes, and the sender's MTA can send the user a bounce
msg if they choose to.
|
Yup. Agreed. I was imprecise as well. Receiving MTA should NOT send
bounce, senders MTA sending a bounce is not that bad as long as it is
not an open relay and only accepts "from" addresses from it's domain.
If the server allows "return path:" to be spoofed, and some user starts
spewing viruses or winds up zobied and spewing spam to the server, the
bounces go to the forged reurn path. Not good.
What drives me crazy is relaying, where the relay accepts EVEYTHING and
then sneds a bounce if the mail cannot be delivered to the final
destination. The backscatter from that when a spam run hits it... |
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Robert Redelmeier
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jul 07, 2005 4:20 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
|
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T. Sean Weintz <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote:
| Quote: | No. In this day and age no server should send bounce
messages ever, for any reason!
|
Agreed with respect to the receiver MTA. I was being imprecise.
| Quote: | The 5xx error message the sever generates should be enough
for the sender to know there is a problem.
|
Yes, and the sender's MTA can send the user a bounce
msg if they choose to.
-- Robert |
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Frankster
Guest
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| Posted:
Thu Jul 07, 2005 10:08 pm Post subject:
Re: VERIZON'S EMAIL SERVER IN RBL LIST, CAN'T SEND EMAILS |
|
|
"T. Sean Weintz" <strap@hanh-ct.org> wrote in message
news:11co4k9ke6r2s33@news.supernews.com...
| Quote: | Robert Redelmeier wrote:
These are your value judgements. Do not try to impose them upon
others unless you are willing for them to impose theirs upon you.
Exactly the point I was making.
I have slightly different values. I deplore dropped email,
and deliberately turn my ISPs filters off. I'd rather get
100 spam than lose one legit email. Some email still gets
dropped (SMTP timeouts, I suspect)
I don't use ISP filtering either.
I don't recommend it.
I/we use my/our own mail servers (one at home for my home domain, and
another at my job) I surely would not trust filtering that I could not
control to some extent. If something shows up being blocked that should
not be (which is VERY rare in my expoerience) I want the ability to see
the rejection on the server, the ability to whitelist by IP, etc.
|
How would you feel if your mail server (and leased static IPs) had NEVER
sent spam, yet, you were blacklisted because the list keeper had an issue
with your ISP, and blacklisted the ISPs whole block of addresses. Some of
which the ISP had leased to you?
That is one of my problems.
Running a secure well configured spam-free mail server is not enough. You've
got to get over the blacklist owners grudge against your ISP. Even when the
ISP is NOT HANDLING YOUR MAIL. Call that "accurate"? I don't.
-Frank |
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